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Mrs.

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Ruth Payne probably knew the
Lee Harvey Oswald family better

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than anybody living today.

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The fact that you sheltered the
family of the accused assassin

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of a United States president,
has this bothered you in any way?

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Has this changed your own personal life?

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Very much?

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Do you feel there is a lesson
to be learned here out of the

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tragic events which have happened?

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And if so, what?

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In a downtown building, a gunman
waits at a six floor window, a

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high powered rifle by his side.

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Ruth and Michael Pay are two gooders
who nobody would've ever heard of

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if it hadn't been for the accident,
that one of the people they helped

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out in life was Lee Harvey household.

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I would say they were two of the
most innocent people I ever met.

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Ruth was completely candid with the fbi.

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I think most of the time she's
telling the truth, but I think

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there's certain soft spots where
she's lying because she has to.

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If you really examine the pains,
who they really are, what they

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really did, you might find one of
the real keys to the Kennedy case.

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I would always have terrible if only
feelings, along with many secret service

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men and many people of the nation.

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Anyone who's ever had any
contact with these people say,

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If only I had done something.

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I probably should start with Thirsty Night
or with, uh, I mean with the night before.

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I first became aware of Ruth Payne
in 2008 after reading a popular

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new book on the JFK assassination.

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I was surprised to find that this
liberal Quaker woman was suspected of

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playing a role in the assassination plot.

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I was even more surprised to find
that she was still living just

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50 miles north of me and that she
agreed to be interviewed for my film

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When you went to school,

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this is all very, very close to me.

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I was there, of course, my
life turned upside down.

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I met Lee Anne Oal at a party in
Dallas in February of 1963, so it

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was less than a year that I knew him.

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I was interested in knowing
her simply because she was a

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Russian and spoke a language.

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Well, I've been trying to learn it,
and of course the best way is to

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speak with someone who does not.

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She was expecting a child and
was worried about the marriage.

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So we talked as women, and at that point
I was separated from Michael, so we were

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both having difficulty with our marriages.

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I said, Well, why don't you come and stay
with me at least until the baby's born.

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Oswell just came out some weekends.

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He did not live at my house.

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He was not invited to a very small.

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President John F.

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Kennedy departed Washington on
Thursday morning, November 21st, 1963.

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On Saturday morning, November 23rd,
his body was returned to the White

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House Os usually came out for the
weekend to visit with his family

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and we'd have meals together.

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But on Thursday, the 21st, he came
out late afternoon and as we crossed

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paths, I said, Na president, which
means our president is coming.

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And he just sort of brushed by.

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He went to bed very early.

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I didn't see him that morning.

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He was already gone when I.

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And then, uh, I went off to the dentist,
but I left the TV on for Marina and when

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I got back it was like 11 something.

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We both just sat and watched
tv, prepared some lunch.

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One of the newsmen said he saw a, a
little cloud of something pink coming

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up from the president's head, the

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people running up the hill.

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She said to me, What a
terrible thing this is for Mrs.

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Kennedy.

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And how sad that now the children
will have to grow up without a father.

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I was crying and she was very upset.

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Indeed.

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This was our condition when, uh, men
came from the, uh, police department in

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Dallas and that was the first that we
had any indication that, uh, her husband

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was associated with this tragic event.

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They wanted to know if he had a gun.

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And foolishly I said, No,
cuz that's what I thought.

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And translated to Marina who said
yes, he had a gun and she led the

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officers to the garage and there
on the floor was a blanket roll.

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She had seen the gun and the blanket
roll, but officer picked it up and it was

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so empty, it just folded over his arm.

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Clearly didn't have a gun in it.

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I was just so shocked

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I was plane.

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You are obviously, uh, an
intelligent person and, and,

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and well read, uh, apparently.

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Uh, do you believe, for example, that.

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That there was any conspiracy,
international communist

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conspiracy involved in this?

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No.

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I think there certainly was not.

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Kennedy was elected at the
height of the Cold War.

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Like most politicians of his day, JFK
talked tough on communism, but his

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support for civil rights and international
dialogue earned him hatred from many

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right wing corners of the country.

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Kennedy inherited an escalating
involvement in Vietnam that went

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back to the Truman administration.

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Cuba.

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After Fidel Castro's socialist revolution
was becoming a new battleground in the

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Cold War, the red scare was in full effect
with many Warhawks actively planning for

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a nuclear showdown with the Soviet Union

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that both sides begin anew.

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The quest for peace before the dark powers
of destruction unleashed by science.

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Engulf all humanity.

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Let us never negotiate outta fear,
but let us never fear to negotiate.

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If a free society cannot help the many
who are poor, it cannot save the fuel.

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Who are Rich?

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Ruth and Michael Payne are very important
in the warrant commission volumes.

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They were asked the total
over 6,000 questions.

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Ruth herself was asked about 5,000
questions, which is the most questions

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that any single witness was asked?

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By far.

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They asked a lot of questions, , but I
did not feel there was suspicion of me by

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anyone on the Warren Commission cuz they
were really looking into it thoroughly.

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The suspicion comes from people
who were looking for plots.

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And trying to figure out, you know,
who, it's so hard to feel that such

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a great man could be brought down
so easily by such a small person.

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That's really hard to take in.

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I think the conspiracy theory
did more harm to the country

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than the assassination did.

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It undermined trust, not only in
government, but in institutions

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to understand the assassination
is an enormous investment of time.

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Analyzing where the information is
coming from, who's saying it, whether

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it was corrected later for people
who do dedicate themselves to this.

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The inescapable truth about the Kennedy
assassination is that the testimony, the

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evidence do not add up to the conclusion
that the Warren Commission came to.

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So, oh, they made sense to me.

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The Warren Commission withheld
mountains of evidence from the public.

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The man who was most active on the
Warren Report was a Dulles former head

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of the CIA, who Jack Kennedy hit fired,
and who really hated Jack Kennedy.

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J.

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Edgar Hoover, on the day of the
assassination, and within two hours

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of Oswald's arrest was announcing that
Oswald had done it and done it alone.

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How could he have known that
Oswalt did not have Confederates

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who were still at large?

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The FBI intimidated witnesses to
stick right with the official version.

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Numerous leads were missed.

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Two of the White House in Washington
comes the final verdict on the fateful

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tragedy, which engulfed the nation.

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10 months ago.

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US Chief Justice Earl Warren,
is the bearer of the sad epilog.

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The report in 1964, Earl Warren was
asked if the commission's documents

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would ever be released to the public.

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His answer, Yes, there will come a time,
but it might not be in your lifetime.

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Over the last five decades, public outcry
led to the release of millions of pages of

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documents, but many of the most sensitive
files were held back by the CIA and fbi.

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For most Americans, the killing of John F.

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Kennedy remains unsettled history.

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Finally, in the mid seventies, the a
brooder film was shown to the public.

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It shows Kennedy going back to the left
and everybody goes, Hey, wait a minute.

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If he shot from behind, why
is he going back to the left?

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This is very heavy.

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It's the film shot by the Dallas dress
manufacturer, Abraham, uh, Zda at the

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bottom of the screen, the headshot.

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So then the House select committee
looked at it again and they

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concluded that it's likely there
was a conspiracy, both in Kennedy's

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case and Martin Luther King's case.

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And that was an official conclusion.

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I submit to you that what took place
on November 22nd, 1963 was a kutar.

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This was a package of unfathomable lies.

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Packaged together, though, uh,
with a cinema artist, great skill,

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it really illustrates how wrong.

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That film was or how fictitious it
was because there we were, but it

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was not us and not even our names.

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The OS was introduced to
Janet and Bill Williams.

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All I can find out about the Williams
is that the tax returns are classified

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and that Bill Williams has links
through his family to the CIA and does

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classified work for bail helicopters.

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I was surprised that he didn't
try to reach me, and I guess

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he was nervous about me.

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I'm not sure.

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Oliver Stone is a wonderful
filmmaker, but he's used this to

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put certain myths into the American
bloodstream that abide to this day.

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Subcommittee will come to order today.

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We consider legislation that would
publicly release the investigative

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files and other documents
relating to the assassination.

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Mr.

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Chairman, I'm committed to the principle
that Americans are entitled to know

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the truth about the assassination,
President Kennedy, and feel that Congress

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should do its best to allay fears of
the American people in this regard.

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The next witness is Oliver Stone,
one of our most successful film

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directors, a Vietnam veteran.

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Welcome, Mr.

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Stone.

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You are probably the reason that we're
all here today among some of the records

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that we were dying to get hold of in
order to elaborate on our theories in

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the film are the testimony of people
like Richard Helms Howard Hunt, CIA

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agent at that time, Ruth Payne, who,
uh, knew the OS wells very well in.

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All these names that you're mentioning,
uh, the ones that are living,

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did you contact them or of none?

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Representative.

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None of these people would talk to us.

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Thank you so much, Mr.

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Stone.

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We have 74 co-sponsors on the bill
at this present time, and we think

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that, uh, a result of the initiation
of these hearings, we'll soon,

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uh, get the, uh, required number.

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The National archives are preparing to
release more than 3000 documents present.

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George h w Bush signed the JFK Records
Act in October, 1992, which initiated

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the collection of those mainly FBI
and C documents, and called for

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their public release 25 years later,
which is October 26th of this year.

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Top secret documents about the
assassination of President John F.

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Kennedy are now public
54 years after his death.

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It is just a fraction of the documents
today, President Trump delayed the

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release of many of the secret files,
following concerns from national security

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agencies over what should be made public.

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At the 11th hour here it appears
the CIA and the FBI said there were

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concerns about national security.

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00:14:21,915 --> 00:14:25,454
Here is something that's been on
the books for more than 25 years.

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This release of documents
we've known it's coming.

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00:14:27,974 --> 00:14:32,474
Everyone knew it was coming, and with
less than six hours left, all of a

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sudden there's a nuisance of, Well,
no, we need to look at this further.

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We haven't had enough
time to to look at it.

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I'll guarantee a conspiracy
theorist are going crazy.

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Yeah.

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Over that.

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According to the two most basic
theories, Ruth Payne was either

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a CIA asset who holds secrets to
the biggest murder mystery in US

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00:14:49,875 --> 00:14:54,405
history, or an innocent bystander
who's been slandered and harassed by

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people like me for the last 50 years.

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For those of the conspiratorial
persuasion, there are

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more nuanced question.

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Such as whether Ruth was an active
member of an assassination plot

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or just an unwitting pond, or
whether she's in such deep denial

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that she believes her own lies.

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Of course, if you trust Ruth, this
all sounds like paranoid gibberish.

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Michael Payne plays a smaller role
in the story because he wasn't

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living at the house at the time.

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00:15:29,449 --> 00:15:32,520
Although the suspicions around
Michael are just as intense.

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Ruth and Michael Payne were not your
typical family living in the working

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class suburb of Irving, Texas in 1963.

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Both Paynes were well educated
liberals born in New York

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City to affluent families.

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Ruth was a Quaker and Michael a Unitarian.

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Despite the fact that Michael worked
for a military contractor, the pains

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both described themselves as pacifists.

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00:16:00,660 --> 00:16:04,830
The first time I went to interview Ruth,
I discovered that Michael had just moved

236
00:16:04,830 --> 00:16:09,690
into the same retirement home even though
they had been divorced for 40 years.

237
00:16:10,530 --> 00:16:11,190
That's Michael Payne.

238
00:16:12,780 --> 00:16:15,030
Michael, this is Max.

239
00:16:15,030 --> 00:16:15,450
Good.

240
00:16:16,650 --> 00:16:17,970
I'm doing a documentary with Ruth.

241
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:19,200
I'd love to talk to you.

242
00:16:21,780 --> 00:16:22,890
Oh-ho the project,

243
00:16:26,340 --> 00:16:26,610
right?

244
00:16:26,610 --> 00:16:27,570
A little poll here.

245
00:16:27,575 --> 00:16:29,820
How many of you people think
there was a conspiracy?

246
00:16:30,900 --> 00:16:32,130
No, they're not here.

247
00:16:33,780 --> 00:16:34,680
, take your choice.

248
00:16:35,340 --> 00:16:42,890
The cia, fbi Johnson, you
know, uh, one RT or another's.

249
00:16:42,890 --> 00:16:43,010
Yeah.

250
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:43,690
Yeah.

251
00:16:43,690 --> 00:16:48,300
I, I would, What has happened
in this country over the years?

252
00:16:48,305 --> 00:16:49,350
I wouldn't doubt it.

253
00:16:49,410 --> 00:16:50,450
I mean, I wouldn't be.

254
00:16:51,625 --> 00:16:52,885
If there was a conspiracy.

255
00:16:52,885 --> 00:16:52,975
Yeah.

256
00:16:52,975 --> 00:16:54,505
Well, you're one of my liberal friends,

257
00:16:57,595 --> 00:17:00,475
what the truth was, but did ask.

258
00:17:02,625 --> 00:17:04,795
I think that Oswell did it.

259
00:17:04,915 --> 00:17:07,405
I don't happen to know anything else here.

260
00:17:07,405 --> 00:17:12,265
He has shot the president of the
United States States the biggest

261
00:17:12,535 --> 00:17:18,234
so-called democracy in the world
that's going to go down in history,

262
00:17:18,535 --> 00:17:19,855
and he was the one who did it.

263
00:17:21,805 --> 00:17:24,714
I was only able to talk to
Michael Payne for half an hour.

264
00:17:25,555 --> 00:17:28,405
It was clear that he was already
beginning to lose his memory.

265
00:17:29,025 --> 00:17:33,775
That from what I was told, he
became increasingly incoherent

266
00:17:33,985 --> 00:17:35,425
over the next few years.

267
00:17:48,415 --> 00:17:49,255
I know it's hard.

268
00:17:49,735 --> 00:17:51,465
And thank you for revisiting this.

269
00:17:51,525 --> 00:17:52,365
It's all hard.

270
00:17:52,665 --> 00:17:53,535
It's always hard.

271
00:17:59,175 --> 00:18:03,915
I was interviewed by the networks and
they've done every 10th anniversary,

272
00:18:03,945 --> 00:18:06,525
20th, 30th, 40th, 50th anniversary.

273
00:18:06,975 --> 00:18:11,835
ABC did one of the best, which
began by saying, Oswell did it, and

274
00:18:11,835 --> 00:18:13,335
they were going to show you why.

275
00:18:13,995 --> 00:18:16,635
More than two thirds of Americans
still believe there was a

276
00:18:16,635 --> 00:18:18,495
conspiracy to kill the president.

277
00:18:19,455 --> 00:18:23,115
But unless you are an irredeemable
conspiracy theorist beyond the pale,

278
00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:27,225
so to speak, what we will do tonight is
demonstrate that those theories are wrong.

279
00:18:29,955 --> 00:18:36,930
There was a televised mock trial
in 86 of the JFK case with Jerry

280
00:18:36,930 --> 00:18:41,895
Spence representing Oswald, Vince
Boogalo representing the prosecution.

281
00:18:41,955 --> 00:18:45,885
Because Spence wasn't well prepared,
Vince carried the day and one of

282
00:18:45,885 --> 00:18:47,745
his best witnesses was Ruth Payne.

283
00:18:47,955 --> 00:18:48,795
Call your next witness.

284
00:18:49,635 --> 00:18:51,105
The government calls.

285
00:18:51,615 --> 00:18:53,054
This is Ruth Payne.

286
00:18:55,995 --> 00:18:57,135
Here, take the witness stand.

287
00:18:57,135 --> 00:18:57,495
If you would.

288
00:18:57,495 --> 00:19:00,015
Please tell us your name.

289
00:19:00,645 --> 00:19:01,395
I'm Ruth Payne.

290
00:19:02,625 --> 00:19:03,435
Uh, Mrs.

291
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:03,855
Payne.

292
00:19:03,855 --> 00:19:05,115
Your occupation, ma'am?

293
00:19:05,535 --> 00:19:06,915
I'm a school psychologist.

294
00:19:06,915 --> 00:19:08,085
I work with school children.

295
00:19:08,775 --> 00:19:15,585
It was like a regular trial and they
brought in jurors and a judge from Dallas

296
00:19:15,825 --> 00:19:18,495
and the real witnesses, including myself.

297
00:19:18,975 --> 00:19:23,025
Didn't you tell the Warren
Commission that you were impressed

298
00:19:23,025 --> 00:19:28,635
how calm Lee was and how completely
certainly was of his innocence?

299
00:19:29,445 --> 00:19:35,775
You of course, are not an
agent for the cia, are you?

300
00:19:36,085 --> 00:19:36,435
No.

301
00:19:36,585 --> 00:19:36,735
No.

302
00:19:36,735 --> 00:19:37,755
You see, you laugh.

303
00:19:37,815 --> 00:19:38,385
Yes, I do.

304
00:19:40,215 --> 00:19:43,935
You are not an agent for the kgb, are you?

305
00:19:44,025 --> 00:19:44,385
No.

306
00:19:44,655 --> 00:19:45,465
Are you laughing again?

307
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:48,450
Well, you ridiculed me for laughing.

308
00:19:48,450 --> 00:19:50,160
No, I don't mean ridicule you for it.

309
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,950
I just wanna know if you
find the inquiry amusing.

310
00:19:56,190 --> 00:19:56,490
No.

311
00:20:03,390 --> 00:20:06,630
The back bedroom is where Ruth
Payne stayed with her children.

312
00:20:06,660 --> 00:20:10,410
The front bedrooms or Marina
oal stayed with her kids.

313
00:20:10,430 --> 00:20:10,920
Okay.

314
00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:11,320
And.

315
00:20:12,254 --> 00:20:15,504
The famous garage is over here on the
other side of the house where the gun was.

316
00:20:15,625 --> 00:20:16,425
Right, right.

317
00:20:16,475 --> 00:20:18,264
So let me know if you have any questions.

318
00:20:18,415 --> 00:20:18,905
Okay.

319
00:20:21,675 --> 00:20:25,334
The people that are suspicious
of me, fortunately, don't really

320
00:20:25,334 --> 00:20:26,534
come around to talk to me.

321
00:20:27,074 --> 00:20:28,395
That does not happen.

322
00:20:28,395 --> 00:20:29,625
And I'm grateful for that.

323
00:20:30,975 --> 00:20:32,504
Haynes were connected.

324
00:20:33,225 --> 00:20:34,905
They were to cia.

325
00:20:35,084 --> 00:20:40,385
She was a Quaker . No,
she said she was a Quaker.

326
00:20:40,389 --> 00:20:43,754
They were connected to the
CIA before all this happened.

327
00:20:43,844 --> 00:20:48,135
Well, officially we try to be neutral
as far as all the different theories.

328
00:20:48,854 --> 00:20:51,074
Like they might mention something
like, you know, I heard the

329
00:20:51,405 --> 00:20:53,564
the, were working for the cia.

330
00:20:53,564 --> 00:20:57,044
You know, I might mention, Well, you
know, it's pretty much impossible to know

331
00:20:57,405 --> 00:20:59,354
if someone's working for the CIA or not.

332
00:20:59,475 --> 00:21:01,875
Cause that's the first rule
working for the CIA is you

333
00:21:01,875 --> 00:21:04,034
don't let anyone know, ever.

334
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:08,294
You know, So the official story.

335
00:21:09,710 --> 00:21:12,270
I don't like to offend anybody,
but if you believe it, you've

336
00:21:12,270 --> 00:21:16,120
got the IQ of a, of a, an amba.

337
00:21:16,420 --> 00:21:19,020
See, you had the IQ of
an AMBA until yesterday.

338
00:21:19,230 --> 00:21:19,590
Yeah.

339
00:21:25,350 --> 00:21:30,090
There are all kinds of claims and rumors
about the pains, but no concrete evidence

340
00:21:30,210 --> 00:21:32,640
has ever directly linked them to the cia.

341
00:21:33,660 --> 00:21:36,870
Most of the suspicions revolve
around their immediate family.

342
00:21:37,830 --> 00:21:39,870
Everybody has connections of some sort.

343
00:21:39,990 --> 00:21:46,530
My father did work for the S A I D and
some people who work for U S A A D are

344
00:21:46,530 --> 00:21:49,500
also in the CIA A, but that wasn't true.

345
00:21:49,500 --> 00:21:50,760
My father, I don't believe.

346
00:21:52,455 --> 00:21:58,755
Your sister was, I think she
worked briefly with, uh, an outfit.

347
00:21:58,785 --> 00:22:02,895
All I really know that she's told me
about it is that she was helping develop

348
00:22:03,195 --> 00:22:06,285
questionnaires for non-English speakers.

349
00:22:06,885 --> 00:22:14,255
It's possible, but, uh, I think
unlikely that some of the contracts

350
00:22:14,260 --> 00:22:17,085
she may have been working on could
have been something that CIA wanted.

351
00:22:17,925 --> 00:22:19,785
But, uh, I don't know.

352
00:22:21,375 --> 00:22:25,695
Researching online, I was able to
track down Ruth's sister, Sylvia Hoke.

353
00:22:26,235 --> 00:22:29,775
She was still alive at age 90,
Sylvia, but unfortunately she

354
00:22:29,775 --> 00:22:31,335
wasn't interested in talking.

355
00:22:31,665 --> 00:22:34,305
Would you be willing to,
uh, answer a few questions?

356
00:22:39,675 --> 00:22:45,935
Every man, woman, and child lives
under a nuclear sword of dams

357
00:22:46,785 --> 00:22:48,735
hanging by the slenderest of threads.

358
00:22:50,130 --> 00:22:56,730
Capable of being cut at any moment by
accident or miscalculation, or by madness.

359
00:22:57,630 --> 00:23:03,480
Each year of the Kennedy presidency was
marked by a major Cold War crisis in 1961.

360
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,890
The CIA enacted a plan that had been
in the works long before Kennedy took

361
00:23:07,890 --> 00:23:10,320
office, the Bay of Pigs invasion.

362
00:23:11,550 --> 00:23:15,270
Kennedy went along with the covert
operation to overthrow Fidel Castro.

363
00:23:16,140 --> 00:23:20,190
But when the CIA trained anti-Castro
gorillas were quickly overwhelmed

364
00:23:20,195 --> 00:23:24,270
by the Cuban army, he rejected
CIA demands to send in the Air

365
00:23:24,270 --> 00:23:25,830
Force and finished the job.

366
00:23:27,060 --> 00:23:30,610
Mistrust and resentment would mark
Kennedy's relationship with the military

367
00:23:30,615 --> 00:23:32,880
and CIA for the rest of his life.

368
00:23:33,540 --> 00:23:38,130
After the Bay of Pigs fiasco, Kennedy
remarked that he wanted to quote splinter

369
00:23:38,130 --> 00:23:43,500
the CIA into a thousand pieces, and he
fired CIA Director Alan Ellis soon after.

370
00:23:45,135 --> 00:23:47,955
The following year, Cuba
was again at center stage.

371
00:23:47,955 --> 00:23:48,764
In the Cold War.

372
00:23:49,575 --> 00:23:53,385
The US discovered that the Soviet Union
had stationed nuclear missiles on the

373
00:23:53,385 --> 00:23:55,754
island just 90 miles from Florida.

374
00:23:56,774 --> 00:24:01,034
The resulting 13 day showdown brought
the world to the brink of nuclear war.

375
00:24:01,995 --> 00:24:05,564
Somehow, Kennedy and Soviet
leader, Nikita Crue, were able to

376
00:24:05,564 --> 00:24:10,185
diffuse the situation despite the
influence of Warhawks on both sides.

377
00:24:12,044 --> 00:24:15,524
At the height of the crisis, Attorney
General Robert Kennedy met with

378
00:24:15,524 --> 00:24:19,274
the Soviet ambassador and told
him, We are under pressure from our

379
00:24:19,274 --> 00:24:21,375
military to use force against Cuba.

380
00:24:21,915 --> 00:24:25,365
If the situation continues much
longer, the president is not

381
00:24:25,365 --> 00:24:28,905
sure that the military will not
overthrow him and seize power.

382
00:24:34,995 --> 00:24:35,235
Mrs.

383
00:24:35,235 --> 00:24:38,564
Payne, what is the next thing that
happened pertaining to the assassination?

384
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,260
Well, the next thing they announced on the
television that the president had died,

385
00:24:43,530 --> 00:24:48,600
and very shortly after that there were
six officers that came to my front door.

386
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,020
There are those who feel they can
just tell that Ruth Payne is lying,

387
00:24:52,500 --> 00:24:54,179
that it's written all over her face.

388
00:24:54,929 --> 00:24:58,860
Some say that she's too articulate
that she must be a CIA agent.

389
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,840
Repeating rehearsed lines, we can read
into the accused whatever we like.

390
00:25:03,899 --> 00:25:08,129
What did Marina Ruth has given so many
interviews and we expect her to perform

391
00:25:08,129 --> 00:25:10,199
the appropriate emotions each time.

392
00:25:10,740 --> 00:25:14,219
Shock, sadness, anger, regret.

393
00:25:14,850 --> 00:25:19,920
One of the officers, um, asked if
he had any guns and I said, No.

394
00:25:20,190 --> 00:25:21,780
Translated the question to Marina.

395
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,030
And she said, Yes, he did.

396
00:25:24,030 --> 00:25:27,210
And she led the policeman into the garage.

397
00:25:27,300 --> 00:25:29,880
And there on the floor was a blanket roll.

398
00:25:29,940 --> 00:25:34,380
And uh, the officer picked up the
blanket roll and it was so clear right

399
00:25:34,380 --> 00:25:36,000
away, I thought there was nothing in it.

400
00:25:36,310 --> 00:25:38,160
And it folded over his arm.

401
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,740
It was clearly an empty blanket.

402
00:25:42,390 --> 00:25:47,370
And that was the point at which I
felt, Oh, it could have been Lee.

403
00:25:47,370 --> 00:25:48,600
It could have been Lee.

404
00:25:48,690 --> 00:25:52,170
And it was at that point that I
thought it could have been Lee.

405
00:25:52,350 --> 00:25:55,650
And this is the worst moment
ever because I thought, Oh my

406
00:25:55,655 --> 00:25:56,890
God, it could have been me.

407
00:25:57,260 --> 00:26:02,160
It could have been Lee Conspiracy
theorists must explain the pains away.

408
00:26:02,580 --> 00:26:03,570
They must be wrong.

409
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:04,470
And guess what?

410
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,830
You can't say they're lying cuz
they're meticulously honest.

411
00:26:08,070 --> 00:26:09,870
They haven't changed
their story from day one.

412
00:26:10,140 --> 00:26:12,150
Their core is about telling the truth.

413
00:26:13,710 --> 00:26:19,650
Since the release of his 1993 bestseller,
case closed, author and former attorney,

414
00:26:19,710 --> 00:26:24,240
Gerald Posner, has been the go-to
expert representing the official story.

415
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,760
The record is now abundant with the
evidence in original material that you

416
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,680
can draw the conclusion that Lee Harvey
Oswald acted alone on the other side.

417
00:26:34,770 --> 00:26:39,450
You have a 92 year old Philadelphia
lawyer, Vince Soria, a legend

418
00:26:39,455 --> 00:26:41,160
among conspiracy researchers.

419
00:26:41,730 --> 00:26:46,230
In 1964, he was among the first to
publicly challenge the conclusions

420
00:26:46,235 --> 00:26:47,250
of the Warren Commission.

421
00:26:47,790 --> 00:26:51,720
For over 50 years, his analysis of
the case has been considered to be

422
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:56,370
the most cutting edge or the most
extreme, depending on your persuasion.

423
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:01,860
It wasn't a cast conspiracy,
it wasn't a Soviet conspiracy,

424
00:27:02,490 --> 00:27:04,650
It wasn't a mafia conspiracy.

425
00:27:06,030 --> 00:27:07,260
Our institutions did it.

426
00:27:07,890 --> 00:27:08,879
Our government did it.

427
00:27:09,660 --> 00:27:13,710
In order to have a conspiracy,
you've gotta complete a circle.

428
00:27:14,970 --> 00:27:18,930
In this case, you've gotta get
the Oswalt into the Dallas area.

429
00:27:19,140 --> 00:27:24,720
You've gotta get Oswalt into the
Texas Book Depository in Time.

430
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:32,010
People with garage where they
so-called murder weapon can be stored.

431
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,880
Suppose it, the conspiracy
says you don't just wait.

432
00:27:37,470 --> 00:27:42,390
Somebody will get OAL and
his family in the Dallas.

433
00:27:43,170 --> 00:27:43,710
We'll just wait.

434
00:27:43,710 --> 00:27:47,580
Maybe he'll happen to find a job
in the Texas Book Depository.

435
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,200
Once you see a conspiracy,
it's over for the pains.

436
00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:53,790
You can't close the
circle without the pains.

437
00:27:54,360 --> 00:27:57,520
There's no way they could be innocent.

438
00:27:57,525 --> 00:27:57,660
No.

439
00:28:01,695 --> 00:28:06,135
I didn't get into the conspiracies
at all because I don't have

440
00:28:06,385 --> 00:28:08,774
a paranoid bone in my body.

441
00:28:09,254 --> 00:28:11,774
I just don't see ghosts anywhere.

442
00:28:12,195 --> 00:28:18,135
The other side of that is I'm kind
of naive and uh uh, it has been

443
00:28:18,915 --> 00:28:21,625
a blessing, frankly, to be naive.

444
00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:35,085
It was through the auspices of George
Desmoines Shett that Ruth and Michael

445
00:28:35,085 --> 00:28:37,500
Payne are introduced to the Oswalds.

446
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,740
Oswald becomes chummy with
the white Russian community of

447
00:28:40,745 --> 00:28:43,590
Dallas, all rabid anti communists.

448
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:44,220
It's odd.

449
00:28:44,670 --> 00:28:50,100
His closest friend is an oil man
named George DeMar Shield, who's

450
00:28:50,100 --> 00:28:55,590
about 35 years older than Oswald,
who is only 23 and supposedly broke.

451
00:28:55,910 --> 00:28:59,760
I think the only time I met, uh,
George DeMar Shield was at this

452
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:05,320
party in February, and uh, he and his
wife Gene were there, but I didn't.

453
00:29:06,190 --> 00:29:10,560
I wasn't, didn't hear much from them
because I spent most of the evening with,

454
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,230
uh, Marina in a bedroom with the baby.

455
00:29:13,620 --> 00:29:18,300
Des Moines Shield is a member of
the Dallas Petroleum Club, speaks

456
00:29:18,300 --> 00:29:22,950
five languages and was a French BIE
intelligence during the also rumor

457
00:29:22,955 --> 00:29:24,810
to have been a Nazi sympathizer.

458
00:29:24,900 --> 00:29:32,550
We met the OAL in the summer of last 1962
when we heard that, uh, there was a young

459
00:29:32,550 --> 00:29:36,930
couple, We arrived from Russia and we were
in very difficult financial condition.

460
00:29:38,220 --> 00:29:41,670
Why would a white Russian, who
is vehemently anti-communist

461
00:29:41,675 --> 00:29:43,380
associate with Oswald?

462
00:29:43,670 --> 00:29:44,460
I don't know.

463
00:29:44,460 --> 00:29:45,360
Good question.

464
00:29:46,615 --> 00:29:47,754
Not what I asked.

465
00:29:48,264 --> 00:29:54,385
Shortly after this, in about April
of 1963, George Desmoines shed

466
00:29:54,445 --> 00:29:56,425
leaves the Dallas Fort Worth area.

467
00:29:56,784 --> 00:30:03,804
Then he goes on to Haiti and reportedly
there is $300,000 deposited into

468
00:30:03,804 --> 00:30:06,294
was account before he went to Haiti.

469
00:30:06,294 --> 00:30:10,345
He went to Washington and sat
down in a secret meeting with

470
00:30:10,345 --> 00:30:12,564
Army Intelligence and the cia.

471
00:30:12,564 --> 00:30:18,534
So you can see that Newmar show to
somebody with a kind of spook background.

472
00:30:18,985 --> 00:30:23,814
So the question then becomes was, did
Warren, she being paid off for doing

473
00:30:23,814 --> 00:30:29,335
his escort services with Oswald and then
leaving them with Ruth and Michael Payne?

474
00:30:29,365 --> 00:30:33,294
That's a question we can't answer
because unfortunately when the House

475
00:30:33,300 --> 00:30:38,605
Select Committee was trying to service
subpoena, he was either murdered or

476
00:30:38,610 --> 00:30:41,064
took his own life with a shotgun blast.

477
00:30:43,215 --> 00:30:46,875
There have been allegations that Desmoines
show was somehow connected to the cia.

478
00:30:47,115 --> 00:30:48,165
Is that possible?

479
00:30:49,065 --> 00:30:49,755
I think it's.

480
00:30:51,015 --> 00:30:52,245
But it's an allegation.

481
00:30:53,895 --> 00:30:59,475
It's only a theory, but we have to
take it very seriously that Ruth Payne

482
00:30:59,775 --> 00:31:02,625
was acting as a babysitter for Marina.

483
00:31:03,375 --> 00:31:07,575
She's arranged to do all kinds of
things for Marina, the way that

484
00:31:07,575 --> 00:31:12,075
George Marin used to do, take her
to medical appointments and so on.

485
00:31:12,165 --> 00:31:16,215
I was lonely, and this was someone to
talk to, somebody I could, could help

486
00:31:16,215 --> 00:31:21,765
me with Russian, and that's really
why, um, I invited Marina to stay

487
00:31:21,765 --> 00:31:27,645
at the house when I did, from the
time Ruth met the Oswalds until the

488
00:31:27,645 --> 00:31:35,325
assassination was exactly nine months,
from February 22nd to November 22nd, 1963.

489
00:31:36,435 --> 00:31:40,425
For nearly half that time, the
Oswalt's actually lived in New Orleans.

490
00:31:41,235 --> 00:31:45,645
It wasn't until late September that
Marina moved in with Ruth just two

491
00:31:45,645 --> 00:31:47,205
months before the assassination.

492
00:31:51,245 --> 00:31:54,785
At the end of Lee's New Orleans
stay, it was arranged for Ruth Payne

493
00:31:54,785 --> 00:31:59,315
to travel with Marina all the way
from New Orleans back to Dallas.

494
00:31:59,405 --> 00:32:01,565
And you have to ask, was that simply done?

495
00:32:01,570 --> 00:32:05,975
Outta the goodness of Ruth Payne's heart,
you are supposed to have brought Marina

496
00:32:05,975 --> 00:32:09,305
and the gun from New Orleans to Dallas.

497
00:32:09,395 --> 00:32:12,575
Was there any such gun that
you traveled with, Marina with?

498
00:32:13,355 --> 00:32:15,635
I was certainly unaware
there being a gun at all.

499
00:32:15,875 --> 00:32:21,335
Uh, either in my car or in the garage,
or I didn't know that dazzled had one.

500
00:32:21,335 --> 00:32:23,405
But, uh, I can read the papers.

501
00:32:23,950 --> 00:32:24,755
, I can judge that.

502
00:32:24,755 --> 00:32:25,715
He must have had one.

503
00:32:26,135 --> 00:32:29,165
And, uh, as near as I can
figure out, it's possible.

504
00:32:29,165 --> 00:32:34,985
It was in my car when I took Marina and
her baby and most of their worldly goods

505
00:32:34,985 --> 00:32:38,735
from New Orleans in September of 63.

506
00:32:41,465 --> 00:32:45,335
I've always called Oswald
a politicized sociopath.

507
00:32:46,050 --> 00:32:50,160
Had Oswald lived, I think he would've
been upset that people took the

508
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,110
credit away from him for doing it.

509
00:32:52,380 --> 00:32:53,880
He had that kind of mentality.

510
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:02,160
He suddenly realized he had an opportunity
to, uh, no longer be a little guy,

511
00:33:02,940 --> 00:33:05,430
but to be someone extraordinary.

512
00:33:06,150 --> 00:33:07,110
Did you kill the president?

513
00:33:07,860 --> 00:33:09,480
No, I have not been charged with that.

514
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,520
In fact, nobody has said that to me yet.

515
00:33:12,270 --> 00:33:15,330
The first thing I heard about it was
when the newspaper report is in the

516
00:33:15,330 --> 00:33:18,510
hall, uh, asked me that question.

517
00:33:19,110 --> 00:33:21,300
Okay, what did you do in Russia?

518
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:27,990
Lee presented that people didn't see
in him his potential, how great he was.

519
00:33:28,740 --> 00:33:32,700
He's a kid who just turned 24 years
old, who has defected to Russia in

520
00:33:32,700 --> 00:33:35,910
the heart of the Cold War, goes to
New Orleans and forms a pro Castro

521
00:33:35,910 --> 00:33:40,290
organization, goes to Mexico City and
tries to get to the revolution in Cuba.

522
00:33:40,785 --> 00:33:42,105
He's done unlocked by 24.

523
00:33:42,645 --> 00:33:46,035
I think it's a lone move thing that
he probably wanted to make a mark on

524
00:33:46,365 --> 00:33:52,275
society suddenly occurred to him that he
could, He was proud of what he had done.

525
00:33:52,455 --> 00:33:55,545
He was intelligent, he was dyslexic.

526
00:33:56,055 --> 00:33:57,195
He believed violence.

527
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:01,335
Was the, uh, was it the only
effective tool almost from

528
00:34:01,335 --> 00:34:02,655
the beginning of this case.

529
00:34:02,865 --> 00:34:09,705
Her and Michael are always there to
discredit Oswald, to caricature Oswald,

530
00:34:09,764 --> 00:34:15,105
to say he wanted to be a big man in
history, which of course makes no sense at

531
00:34:15,105 --> 00:34:19,455
all because if that's who OAL was doing,
then he would've admitted that he did it.

532
00:34:20,264 --> 00:34:20,505
Okay?

533
00:34:20,505 --> 00:34:21,375
But he never did.

534
00:34:21,375 --> 00:34:25,365
And in fact, he said just the
opposite, I'm just a Patsy president.

535
00:34:25,370 --> 00:34:28,695
No, That taken me in because of
the fact that I lived in Soviet.

536
00:34:29,885 --> 00:34:31,305
I'm just a Patsy president.

537
00:34:33,855 --> 00:34:37,465
Here's a man who feels that life
has been tough and he hasn't.

538
00:34:37,995 --> 00:34:38,865
Got a proper deal.

539
00:34:41,054 --> 00:34:43,635
People have been given, but
I in fact, deny these trucks.

540
00:34:45,255 --> 00:34:49,605
Here's a guy who learns Russian in the
Marines, leaves the Marines under false

541
00:34:49,605 --> 00:34:55,635
pretenses, goes to the Soviet Union,
supposedly gives away secrets to the

542
00:34:55,639 --> 00:35:00,735
Soviets, gives up his citizenship,
decides he wants to come back.

543
00:35:00,825 --> 00:35:02,565
The government pays its way back.

544
00:35:03,315 --> 00:35:09,135
This is a guy who had worked at a
cia U2 spy base as a radar operator.

545
00:35:09,495 --> 00:35:10,905
He knew a lot of the codes.

546
00:35:11,205 --> 00:35:14,535
He then defected to Russia,
promised to turn over state secrets

547
00:35:14,745 --> 00:35:16,125
at the height of the Cold War.

548
00:35:17,085 --> 00:35:21,495
He's there for 20 months, returns with
a Russian wife, and he's not arrested.

549
00:35:23,055 --> 00:35:24,135
Who's he working for?

550
00:35:25,875 --> 00:35:30,735
He's a communist in Dallas, but all of his
friends are white, Russian anti-communists

551
00:35:31,035 --> 00:35:32,835
or people connected with the cia.

552
00:35:34,905 --> 00:35:38,265
Central to many of the theories
is the idea that Oswald was

553
00:35:38,735 --> 00:35:42,525
actually a fake defector sent
to the Soviet Union as a spy.

554
00:35:43,485 --> 00:35:46,905
Seen through that lens, everything
Oswald does, leading up to the

555
00:35:46,905 --> 00:35:49,215
assassination has a different meaning.

556
00:35:50,535 --> 00:35:54,465
Was he continuing to do intelligence
work infiltrating radical groups?

557
00:35:55,305 --> 00:35:58,155
Was he manipulated into
place by larger forces?

558
00:36:00,075 --> 00:36:01,035
Are you a Marxist?

559
00:36:01,125 --> 00:36:02,445
I would very definitely say that.

560
00:36:02,445 --> 00:36:05,865
I, uh, I, uh, a Marx, that is
correct, but that does not mean

561
00:36:05,870 --> 00:36:07,695
however, I'm a, uh, communist.

562
00:36:08,355 --> 00:36:09,765
What is the difference between the two?

563
00:36:09,825 --> 00:36:11,445
Well, there's a great deal of difference.

564
00:36:11,450 --> 00:36:15,015
Several, uh, American parties in
several countries are based on

565
00:36:15,015 --> 00:36:17,655
Marxism, such as gu, uh, Ghana.

566
00:36:17,865 --> 00:36:21,315
Uh, certain countries have,
uh, characteristics of a social

567
00:36:21,315 --> 00:36:24,375
assistant such as Great Britain
with its, uh, socialized medicine.

568
00:36:24,735 --> 00:36:28,335
These then are the differences between
an outright communist country and

569
00:36:28,335 --> 00:36:31,905
countries which adhere to leftist
are Marxist, uh, uh, principles.

570
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:38,730
I guess this morning is Priscilla Johnson
McMillan, the author of Marina and Lee,

571
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:44,190
I want to talk to you about the time you
interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald in Russia.

572
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:44,490
Yes.

573
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,970
What kind of a man was he for Lauren?

574
00:36:48,030 --> 00:36:53,010
Lonely, pathetic, lost
seeming to need help.

575
00:36:54,750 --> 00:36:58,860
I returned to Russia in 1958.

576
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:03,810
It was during that time that
I met Lee Harvey Oswald.

577
00:37:04,290 --> 00:37:10,530
I wrote a story about him as a
defector who was very unusual,

578
00:37:10,530 --> 00:37:13,230
if not nonexistent at that time.

579
00:37:13,620 --> 00:37:19,170
Someone who claimed that he wanted
to live permanently in the Soviet

580
00:37:19,170 --> 00:37:21,480
Union because he was a Marxist.

581
00:37:22,740 --> 00:37:27,510
He said he hated the United States
and that the Russians he dealt

582
00:37:27,510 --> 00:37:29,790
with had all treated him very well.

583
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:36,750
He did tell me that he would give the
Russians any secrets that he possessed.

584
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:43,170
Um, but I assumed he didn't possess any.

585
00:37:44,100 --> 00:37:49,560
I could see that he was angry,
but not off the scale angry.

586
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,550
In fact, I thought he might
be acting a little bit.

587
00:37:58,820 --> 00:38:02,040
It's just a little too contrived that
you happen to know OAL in Russia.

588
00:38:02,045 --> 00:38:02,510
Yeah.

589
00:38:02,610 --> 00:38:05,430
That you then wrote a book, uh, absolving.

590
00:38:05,970 --> 00:38:09,240
All of those people who are suspected
in conspiracies that you happen

591
00:38:09,240 --> 00:38:12,959
to work for the State Department
and that you are to notice the

592
00:38:12,959 --> 00:38:15,390
initial CIA tattooed on your back.

593
00:38:17,700 --> 00:38:21,990
. Well, I translated for the State
Department for a month in 1956.

594
00:38:22,180 --> 00:38:25,919
Uh, but three years before
I became a journalist.

595
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:26,129
Mm-hmm.

596
00:38:26,575 --> 00:38:29,850
and, um, I would never
have done such a thing.

597
00:38:29,850 --> 00:38:31,350
War II wear two hats.

598
00:38:32,700 --> 00:38:36,839
In 1967, Joseph Stalin's
daughter defected to the us.

599
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:42,000
The person the CIA selected to help her
put out a book on the horrors of Russian

600
00:38:42,029 --> 00:38:44,970
communism was Priscilla Johnson McMillan.

601
00:38:45,419 --> 00:38:52,169
I did translate Lana Ali Louisa's book,
and I didn't know it at the time, but

602
00:38:52,174 --> 00:38:55,259
that was a CIA operation from the get go.

603
00:38:56,459 --> 00:39:01,319
You didn't need to know that story,
but I certainly wouldn't tell

604
00:39:01,319 --> 00:39:03,270
it to the conspiracy the either.

605
00:39:03,855 --> 00:39:06,405
Because they might make, they
wouldn't know what to make of it.

606
00:39:06,975 --> 00:39:07,695
Do you know what I mean?

607
00:39:07,695 --> 00:39:08,835
It's too complicated.

608
00:39:11,925 --> 00:39:16,335
According to polling by Gallop, a majority
of Americans have always believed assassin

609
00:39:16,335 --> 00:39:18,345
Lee Harvey Oswald did not act alone.

610
00:39:18,555 --> 00:39:23,235
The number peaked at a whopping
81% of Americans in 1976.

611
00:39:23,235 --> 00:39:25,935
That was shortly after the
Zza Bruter film was released.

612
00:39:26,025 --> 00:39:29,355
A majority of nearly every demographic
group across the country believes

613
00:39:29,355 --> 00:39:32,205
others were involved in the killing,
with the exception of one group

614
00:39:32,685 --> 00:39:33,855
whites with a college degree.

615
00:39:34,485 --> 00:39:38,145
The principle argument, uh, in defense
of the War Commission conclusion

616
00:39:38,565 --> 00:39:44,835
is an argument from authority and
invariably, you're asked to waive

617
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:46,665
the differences between the sources.

618
00:39:47,565 --> 00:39:50,595
On the one hand, you have the
Chief Justice of the United States,

619
00:39:50,805 --> 00:39:53,655
the former head of the Central
Intelligence Agency, A Dolls.

620
00:39:54,015 --> 00:39:56,715
You have congressman and
Senators serving on the Warren

621
00:39:56,720 --> 00:39:58,184
Commission, including Gerald Ford.

622
00:39:58,980 --> 00:40:02,880
These are the people who have come
up with the facts and conclusions

623
00:40:03,030 --> 00:40:04,200
that proved Oswald did it.

624
00:40:04,830 --> 00:40:09,090
And on the other hand, you have these
kind of crack bot skeptics out there.

625
00:40:09,390 --> 00:40:12,960
Can't get a job,
disaffected hate in America.

626
00:40:13,230 --> 00:40:14,430
Ka leftist.

627
00:40:14,790 --> 00:40:15,750
Who are you going to believe?

628
00:40:17,130 --> 00:40:25,230
I mean, really there have been different
generations of conspiracy thinking.

629
00:40:26,310 --> 00:40:27,630
At the very beginning.

630
00:40:27,870 --> 00:40:33,390
There were about a half dozen
people and they were very savage.

631
00:40:33,990 --> 00:40:39,000
It makes life much simpler if you
think that events of great importance

632
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,130
happen because it was a conspiracy.

633
00:40:41,370 --> 00:40:45,570
It's very threatening to think
they can happen for trivial reason.

634
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,920
Who is likely to have wanted Kennedy dead?

635
00:40:55,980 --> 00:40:59,760
You'd have to say the ca, but
perhaps also the military as well.

636
00:41:02,130 --> 00:41:05,520
What kind of a piece do I mean and
what kind of a piece do we seek?

637
00:41:07,230 --> 00:41:13,320
Not apacs, Americana enforced in the
world by American weapons of war.

638
00:41:14,670 --> 00:41:18,600
Both the United States and its
allies and the Soviet Union and

639
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:24,150
its allies have a mutually deep
interest in a just and genuine piece.

640
00:41:24,780 --> 00:41:30,510
And in hauling the arms race, we are
both devoting massive sums of money to

641
00:41:30,510 --> 00:41:37,020
weapons that could be better devoted to
combat ignorance, poverty, and disease.

642
00:41:37,740 --> 00:41:38,700
We are both caught.

643
00:41:39,510 --> 00:41:41,850
In a vicious and dangerous cycle.

644
00:41:47,310 --> 00:41:51,390
Kennedy was telling people privately
that once he got reelected, he was

645
00:41:51,390 --> 00:41:53,970
gonna back out of Vietnam and he
was not gonna commit force of the

646
00:41:53,970 --> 00:41:55,590
United States to a land war in Asia.

647
00:41:56,670 --> 00:41:58,710
He had infuriated them with a be of pigs.

648
00:41:58,770 --> 00:42:01,080
You infuriated them with a
nuclear test band treaty.

649
00:42:01,140 --> 00:42:04,380
He infuriated them during the
Cuban missile crisis and he was

650
00:42:04,380 --> 00:42:05,850
not gonna let them have their war.

651
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:08,250
Next.

652
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,490
Very, very few people were ever
allowed the intimate details, I'm

653
00:42:11,490 --> 00:42:13,710
sure, uh, Kennedy was taken out.

654
00:42:13,740 --> 00:42:17,550
And, uh, anyone who doubts the
official statements of US government,

655
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:23,370
it's crazy when you do look into the
issues conspiracy theorists race,

656
00:42:23,375 --> 00:42:25,260
sometimes you find a good answer.

657
00:42:25,980 --> 00:42:28,650
But conspiracy theorists
are unwilling to accept it.

658
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,130
And you know, this includes everything
from the shooting sequence to

659
00:42:32,130 --> 00:42:37,530
Oswald's relationship with the
CIA and the FBI and the Cubans.

660
00:42:38,445 --> 00:42:42,045
The Warren Commission wasn't perfect,
but for a lot of the conspiracy

661
00:42:42,045 --> 00:42:43,935
theorists, it approaches a faith.

662
00:42:43,965 --> 00:42:45,225
It's a belief system.

663
00:42:45,465 --> 00:42:49,815
You'll see that your own patriotic
view and faith in America may strongly

664
00:42:49,935 --> 00:42:51,645
color your view of the Kennedy case.

665
00:42:52,995 --> 00:42:57,315
If you're a believer in America's good
faith, the integrity of its fundamental

666
00:42:57,315 --> 00:43:02,295
institutions, you're liable to try to
filter your understanding of the Kennedy

667
00:43:02,295 --> 00:43:04,305
case and much else through that prism.

668
00:43:05,505 --> 00:43:10,545
Well, I think it's healthy to be skeptical
about the government, but to believe that

669
00:43:10,545 --> 00:43:16,215
there could be a coup deta in the United
States carried out or at least tolerated

670
00:43:16,215 --> 00:43:18,165
by the government against the president.

671
00:43:18,645 --> 00:43:22,155
That's a very cynical view
of the government, and I

672
00:43:22,155 --> 00:43:23,745
think that that's corrosive

673
00:43:29,445 --> 00:43:32,355
just north of Martha's
Vineyard off Cape Cod.

674
00:43:32,645 --> 00:43:33,134
Lies.

675
00:43:33,165 --> 00:43:34,125
Naau Island.

676
00:43:34,965 --> 00:43:38,384
The seven Mile Long Island has been
a privately owned getaway for the

677
00:43:38,384 --> 00:43:41,295
Forbes family for more than 150 years.

678
00:43:42,625 --> 00:43:46,245
Naau Island is the stuff that
conspiracy dreams are made of.

679
00:43:47,445 --> 00:43:50,925
Among the many members of the Forbes Klan
who have vacationed on the island over

680
00:43:50,925 --> 00:43:53,684
the years are Michael and Ruth Payne.

681
00:43:54,765 --> 00:43:58,335
Michael Payne's mother was a
Forbes and he spent summers on

682
00:43:58,515 --> 00:43:59,895
Naau Island since childhood.

683
00:44:00,975 --> 00:44:04,665
One of his mother's closest friends
was a woman named Mary Bancroft.

684
00:44:05,505 --> 00:44:09,825
Bancroft was a spy and longtime
mistress of CIA director Alan Dulles.

685
00:44:10,605 --> 00:44:13,995
Dulles and Bancroft were invited
to stay on the Sean Island.

686
00:44:15,735 --> 00:44:18,075
Mary Bancroft knew the pains int.

687
00:44:18,705 --> 00:44:24,435
And saw Michael at a young age, and so she
could turn to her partner Alan Dulles and

688
00:44:24,435 --> 00:44:25,755
tell 'em You want some people on the left?

689
00:44:25,755 --> 00:44:26,835
I know some people on the left.

690
00:44:26,985 --> 00:44:28,245
That could be a big help to you.

691
00:44:28,395 --> 00:44:32,805
So you got a direct line to the top of
the CIA right there, which I think is the

692
00:44:32,835 --> 00:44:35,565
most telling thing of all of the pain.

693
00:44:35,775 --> 00:44:42,855
Saga Na Shawn Island was kind of a
hideaway for these extraordinarily wealthy

694
00:44:42,855 --> 00:44:47,115
people, people with tens of millions,
if not hundreds of millions of dollars.

695
00:44:48,015 --> 00:44:55,005
Ruth Payne visited Naau Island that
summer of 1963, even though she's

696
00:44:55,005 --> 00:44:57,705
supposed to be estranged from her husband.

697
00:44:59,265 --> 00:45:02,775
While you're making connections,
my mother-in-law knew Allen Dolls

698
00:45:04,455 --> 00:45:06,285
So obviously there's a plot.

699
00:45:09,285 --> 00:45:13,755
Michael has a long list of relatives
and, and goes back and he's got

700
00:45:14,205 --> 00:45:18,105
somebody that signed the Declaration
of Independence in his for Bears.

701
00:45:19,155 --> 00:45:23,685
In fact, Michael Payne traces his
lineage to several famous elite

702
00:45:23,685 --> 00:45:29,384
Boston families, Not only the Forbes
and the pains, but also the Cabots.

703
00:45:29,415 --> 00:45:30,405
And the Emersons.

704
00:45:31,275 --> 00:45:35,055
His great great grandfather
was Ralph Waldo Emerson.

705
00:45:36,629 --> 00:45:42,660
His great uncle, who was a really lovely
man, was, uh, the governor General of the

706
00:45:42,660 --> 00:45:47,609
Philippines when the Philippines came to
us after the, uh, Spanish American War.

707
00:45:48,060 --> 00:45:54,209
More conservative I guess, but,
uh, um, very interesting people

708
00:45:54,419 --> 00:45:56,430
and concerned also about the world.

709
00:45:56,910 --> 00:46:02,609
Michael's father was a declared
Trotskyite, met with a little group of

710
00:46:02,615 --> 00:46:07,649
people that wanted society to change
and were working on how to do that.

711
00:46:07,919 --> 00:46:14,220
They were at no point interested
in violent actions, but there's,

712
00:46:14,430 --> 00:46:16,049
uh, two branches of the Forbes.

713
00:46:16,379 --> 00:46:20,279
There's the guys that put out the magazine
and are sort of the wealthier brand.

714
00:46:20,459 --> 00:46:23,879
And then the ones that had
an island off the coast of

715
00:46:23,884 --> 00:46:26,490
Massachusetts was Michael's group.

716
00:46:27,240 --> 00:46:30,060
So yeah, I spent a few summers there.

717
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:31,049
Nice folks.

718
00:46:31,109 --> 00:46:32,250
I liked the family.

719
00:46:32,730 --> 00:46:34,890
So Michael comes from a very rich family.

720
00:46:35,384 --> 00:46:37,634
But you guys lived pretty
modestly in Dallas.

721
00:46:37,695 --> 00:46:38,805
Yes, exactly.

722
00:46:39,134 --> 00:46:42,795
Did he have any sort of trust
fund from the Forbes family?

723
00:46:43,755 --> 00:46:50,745
Well, he had his, he had an account,
uh, that there's a, a, uh, investment

724
00:46:52,065 --> 00:46:56,865
company that holds accounts for
anybody, but a number of members

725
00:46:56,865 --> 00:47:00,884
of the family were invested there,
and it's called the JM for company.

726
00:47:02,115 --> 00:47:04,515
Uh, so yeah, he had an account there.

727
00:47:04,935 --> 00:47:08,924
Michael felt, you know, it wasn't
money he earned just came to him.

728
00:47:09,375 --> 00:47:15,145
And there, I think we've forgotten
the whole concept of no blis, of no

729
00:47:15,145 --> 00:47:18,705
blessed leash if much is given to you,
as much you should be giving back.

730
00:47:19,245 --> 00:47:22,154
Uh, but uh, that was
definitely a feeling of the.

731
00:47:29,279 --> 00:47:33,479
When I, um, first heard of Lee, I was
sort of looked forward with eagerness

732
00:47:33,479 --> 00:47:37,950
to an opportunity to talk with someone
with whom I didn't believe I would

733
00:47:37,950 --> 00:47:41,609
agree, but at least it was interesting
to talk to a man who would been to Russia

734
00:47:41,609 --> 00:47:43,529
and apparently had his own opinions.

735
00:47:44,250 --> 00:47:47,939
I would say he was the kind of
person who likes to put himself

736
00:47:48,669 --> 00:47:51,339
in a position of a belligerence.

737
00:47:51,629 --> 00:47:54,870
Michael claimed he only met
with Lee Oswald six times.

738
00:47:55,140 --> 00:47:59,430
They went to both left wing and right
wing meetings during those six times,

739
00:47:59,430 --> 00:48:04,439
which is probably some kind of record,
Oh, I wanna say this about Michael Payne.

740
00:48:04,799 --> 00:48:06,689
I met him only once.

741
00:48:07,169 --> 00:48:08,850
He didn't make any pretense.

742
00:48:08,939 --> 00:48:14,069
He told me that he and Oswalt
would go to right wing meetings.

743
00:48:14,609 --> 00:48:17,549
We discovered we were both interested
in the activities of right wing

744
00:48:17,549 --> 00:48:21,270
groups in Dallas, which were
common, numerous of that time.

745
00:48:22,425 --> 00:48:26,265
And, uh, I think he described
his activities as spying on them.

746
00:48:26,445 --> 00:48:31,935
Did you ever have a chance to talk
about Cuban communi or Castro Con?

747
00:48:33,405 --> 00:48:37,785
He did mention that, and it was unfamiliar
to me, so I didn't, uh, didn't take it up.

748
00:48:37,785 --> 00:48:41,685
He just had to mention it briefly and
when it was brought to my attention,

749
00:48:41,685 --> 00:48:43,035
I did recall that he had, that

750
00:48:46,245 --> 00:48:50,775
Michael liked to pose provoking
students to talk about their Cuba

751
00:48:50,865 --> 00:48:54,795
beliefs, portraying himself as a pro
Cuban guy, which he certainly was.

752
00:48:54,795 --> 00:48:59,895
Not very weird and suspicious activity.

753
00:48:59,895 --> 00:49:01,485
That's what you do when you're
trying to smoke somebody out.

754
00:49:03,090 --> 00:49:08,790
His father was George, Live in Payne,
a leading TR on the West coast.

755
00:49:09,810 --> 00:49:13,560
Michael Payne works with Be
Helicopter as secret clearance.

756
00:49:14,310 --> 00:49:16,440
You don't get that qui pro quo.

757
00:49:17,009 --> 00:49:17,610
He's an agent.

758
00:49:18,150 --> 00:49:19,110
You know that immediately.

759
00:49:21,060 --> 00:49:25,440
Is it true he had a security clearance
there or was a military contractor?

760
00:49:25,500 --> 00:49:27,060
Oh, I would think it would be.

761
00:49:27,060 --> 00:49:27,509
Have to be.

762
00:49:27,509 --> 00:49:27,900
Yeah.

763
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:31,200
He had been working for his
father-in-law who invented the Bell

764
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:36,330
Helicopter and was doing research
on vertical takeoff and landing.

765
00:49:38,100 --> 00:49:42,270
Bell Helicopter has been a major
military supplier since the 1940s.

766
00:49:42,810 --> 00:49:48,450
Their model, uh, one Huey became an icon
of the Vietnam War as the war expanded

767
00:49:48,450 --> 00:49:49,950
under the Johnson administration.

768
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:51,600
Sales skyrocketed.

769
00:50:06,765 --> 00:50:10,995
Something big about the Ruth
Payne story simply doesn't gel.

770
00:50:12,465 --> 00:50:15,255
My thinking about the pains is
you'll never find a piece of paper

771
00:50:15,255 --> 00:50:16,845
cuz they weren't formally hired.

772
00:50:17,295 --> 00:50:19,125
I think they would do
little favors for you.

773
00:50:19,125 --> 00:50:21,855
Someone like Alan Dulles
out of patriotism.

774
00:50:22,785 --> 00:50:26,535
I don't know anybody who thinks they were
part of the plot to kill the president,

775
00:50:27,165 --> 00:50:31,185
but, uh, a lot of us, including me, think
that they might have been manipulated,

776
00:50:31,695 --> 00:50:36,915
uh, to do certain things like invite
Lee to a job at the book Depository

777
00:50:37,065 --> 00:50:38,595
a month before the assassination.

778
00:50:39,255 --> 00:50:39,495
Mrs.

779
00:50:39,495 --> 00:50:44,115
Payne, did you, um, help him obtain
the job that he, uh, had at the

780
00:50:44,115 --> 00:50:45,615
Texas School Book Depository?

781
00:50:46,305 --> 00:50:48,765
Well, it came about through a coincidence.

782
00:50:48,770 --> 00:50:51,525
I was having coffee with a
neighbor, Rena was there.

783
00:50:52,470 --> 00:50:55,920
She was still trying to learn
English, so I knew that she really

784
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:57,540
didn't follow the conversations.

785
00:50:57,540 --> 00:51:01,470
So when we went home, I said to
my neighbor, mentioned that there

786
00:51:01,475 --> 00:51:05,850
might be, uh, still some hiring
at the school book Depository.

787
00:51:05,850 --> 00:51:07,440
And she said, Oh, could we find out?

788
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:09,810
Could you call and see
whether they are hiring?

789
00:51:10,529 --> 00:51:14,250
She makes the phone call on Monday, and
then he goes in for the interview on

790
00:51:14,250 --> 00:51:16,650
Tuesday and he starts work on Wednesday.

791
00:51:16,710 --> 00:51:20,640
The people involved in this plot
have done site selection in advance.

792
00:51:20,645 --> 00:51:23,700
They're planning to murder
President Kennedy on this trip.

793
00:51:23,819 --> 00:51:26,700
Oswald is gonna get a
job at that building.

794
00:51:26,705 --> 00:51:27,720
That's the setup.

795
00:51:28,230 --> 00:51:31,350
There have been published reports
supposing that he may have been planted

796
00:51:31,350 --> 00:51:34,140
in that building by conspirators
who wanted him there, where he

797
00:51:34,140 --> 00:51:37,500
could fire the president or to
get others in positions to do so.

798
00:51:38,069 --> 00:51:41,680
But these witnesses before the Warren
Commission told another version of

799
00:51:41,685 --> 00:51:43,560
how and why Oswell was employed.

800
00:51:44,310 --> 00:51:44,610
Mrs.

801
00:51:44,615 --> 00:51:46,650
Payne who knew Oswell needed a job.

802
00:51:47,370 --> 00:51:47,670
Mrs.

803
00:51:47,670 --> 00:51:48,330
Linnie may ran.

804
00:51:49,500 --> 00:51:51,510
Who knew where he might get one from.

805
00:51:52,140 --> 00:51:54,450
Roys truly at the Texas
School Book Depository.

806
00:51:54,900 --> 00:51:58,290
So I did call school book
depository talk to Roy truly.

807
00:51:59,070 --> 00:52:03,810
And, uh, uh, said there's this young man
as a wife and another baby on the way,

808
00:52:03,810 --> 00:52:08,400
and he's looking for a job and he doesn't
drive, which limits what he can do.

809
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:14,190
Um, and I was wondering if there was an
opening and, and he wouldn't say whether

810
00:52:14,190 --> 00:52:17,610
there was an opening, but he said, Go
ahead and let the young man come by.

811
00:52:17,970 --> 00:52:21,600
So that's what I relayed to, to Lee.

812
00:52:21,660 --> 00:52:25,290
And then he did go to the school
book to Boston and ask for work.

813
00:52:29,940 --> 00:52:33,000
You had made the comment, I believe
last week, if I'm not mistaken,

814
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:37,020
that, uh, the FBI had been here.

815
00:52:37,020 --> 00:52:37,620
Is that correct?

816
00:52:37,620 --> 00:52:38,490
At your residence?

817
00:52:38,540 --> 00:52:38,900
Mm-hmm.

818
00:52:38,985 --> 00:52:44,880
, uh, to, to visit apparently even Marin
Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald, or both?

819
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:46,980
Uh, what was the occasion of their best?

820
00:52:47,955 --> 00:52:55,725
Well, the uh, agent expressed to me that
it was routine for them to come to people

821
00:52:55,725 --> 00:52:59,595
who had come to live in this country
from countries behind the Iron Curtain.

822
00:53:01,424 --> 00:53:07,035
At the time that Kennedy was
killed, the FBI had just received a

823
00:53:07,035 --> 00:53:11,775
letter postmark from Dallas, which
was purported to be from Oswold.

824
00:53:12,015 --> 00:53:15,435
It was addressed to the
Soviet embassy in Washington.

825
00:53:15,825 --> 00:53:19,605
This was an explosive
conspiratorial letter.

826
00:53:19,935 --> 00:53:24,555
There was actually a warrant
drawn up for his arrest for

827
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:25,665
the murder of the president.

828
00:53:25,665 --> 00:53:31,694
As part of an international
conspiracy, Lee asked to borrow my

829
00:53:31,694 --> 00:53:37,605
typewriter and typed out a letter
I went by and he sort of hid it

830
00:53:37,845 --> 00:53:39,285
like he didn't want me to read it.

831
00:53:39,285 --> 00:53:39,585
I don't know.

832
00:53:39,645 --> 00:53:40,575
That's kind of weird.

833
00:53:40,755 --> 00:53:41,924
Later that evening.

834
00:53:41,984 --> 00:53:46,560
Um, Michael came for dinner and it gave
us a chance to move some furniture.

835
00:53:46,859 --> 00:53:50,460
I noticed Lee had left this letter that
it seemed like he didn't want me to

836
00:53:50,460 --> 00:53:53,069
read on my desk, and the desk was open.

837
00:53:53,075 --> 00:53:57,390
A little flip top, secretary desk as
we walked in to move furniture around.

838
00:53:57,390 --> 00:53:57,600
I just.

839
00:53:58,140 --> 00:54:01,620
Closed the desk in it and
had that letter in it.

840
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:06,240
It was a letter that he was writing to
the Soviet embassy in Washington trying

841
00:54:06,240 --> 00:54:10,050
to push for him and Marina to get a
ticket to go back to the Soviet Union.

842
00:54:10,380 --> 00:54:15,120
And he was saying that Comrade Coston
with whom he had had meetings in

843
00:54:15,125 --> 00:54:20,580
Mexico City and regretted that hadn't
had time to complete our business.

844
00:54:22,110 --> 00:54:26,910
According to a declassified CIA
report, the comrade Costin mentioned

845
00:54:26,910 --> 00:54:32,220
in Oswalt's letter is Valerie
Kotov, a KGB agent, believed to

846
00:54:32,220 --> 00:54:37,830
be involved in executive action,
including sabotage and assassination.

847
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:43,080
The circumstances of the cost and
letter are highly controversial, and

848
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:47,550
many researchers believe this link
between Oswald and a communist assassin

849
00:54:47,970 --> 00:54:50,190
was planted by the true conspirators.

850
00:54:52,380 --> 00:54:53,700
So you talked to the fbi.

851
00:54:54,004 --> 00:54:56,884
On, on at least a couple
of occasions about Oswald.

852
00:54:56,975 --> 00:54:57,154
Yes.

853
00:54:57,154 --> 00:54:58,384
Earlier in October.

854
00:54:58,625 --> 00:55:06,095
And then I, I was disturbed enough about
this letter that I made a copy of it and

855
00:55:06,095 --> 00:55:09,785
thought, Well, I'll, I'll just show it
to the FBI guy when he comes out next.

856
00:55:10,085 --> 00:55:14,975
You did give the FBI a letter that
was supposed to have been written by a

857
00:55:14,975 --> 00:55:16,654
lead of the Soviet Embassy, didn't you?

858
00:55:17,225 --> 00:55:22,085
This was a, uh, draft of a letter
that he left on my desk that

859
00:55:22,085 --> 00:55:25,475
concerned me very deeply because
I could see he was lying in it.

860
00:55:25,734 --> 00:55:28,685
He left and used my typewriter
and that offended me deeply.

861
00:55:29,464 --> 00:55:30,815
He left Defend.

862
00:55:30,819 --> 00:55:33,365
It offended you that he
that lying on my typewriter.

863
00:55:33,365 --> 00:55:33,995
That's right.

864
00:55:34,295 --> 00:55:38,765
I didn't know who he was writing the
letter just said, Dear serves Ruth took

865
00:55:38,765 --> 00:55:42,815
that rough draft without his knowledge
of permission and gave it to the fbi.

866
00:55:44,245 --> 00:55:46,295
Actually, I had this
conversation with the FBI man.

867
00:55:46,984 --> 00:55:51,484
He also was interested in,
uh, preserving our rights.

868
00:55:51,900 --> 00:55:53,759
As outlined in the Constitution.

869
00:55:53,820 --> 00:55:57,090
And uh, so he and I had
a real understanding.

870
00:55:57,540 --> 00:56:00,810
Ruth plays a strange role in this letter.

871
00:56:01,470 --> 00:56:05,820
The Soviets got the letter and were
convinced the letter was a phony.

872
00:56:07,980 --> 00:56:10,380
Either he was making it
up or it was a forgery.

873
00:56:10,450 --> 00:56:11,860
They went so far.

874
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:14,550
This to accuse Ruth of having forged it.

875
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:18,960
Less than two weeks after
Ruth takes Oswald's letter,

876
00:56:19,470 --> 00:56:20,980
President Kennedy is killed.

877
00:56:27,300 --> 00:56:30,240
We're both sitting here on the sofa
watching the television when the

878
00:56:30,330 --> 00:56:31,890
news came that he had been shot.

879
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:37,950
And I translated that to Marina and
we watched anxiously with the rest of

880
00:56:37,950 --> 00:56:39,960
the world to hear what would happen.

881
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:45,180
And finally we did hear that,
uh, the president, soon after the

882
00:56:45,180 --> 00:56:48,980
assassination, Michael calls Ruth
from his job at Bell Helicopter.

883
00:56:49,754 --> 00:56:54,254
Declassified FBI documents revealed that
their conversation was being monitored.

884
00:56:54,825 --> 00:56:59,774
An informant reported that Michael was
overheard to comment that he felt Sure Lee

885
00:56:59,779 --> 00:57:04,424
Harvey Oswald had killed the president,
but did not feel Oswald was responsible.

886
00:57:04,875 --> 00:57:08,384
And further stated, we both
know who is responsible.

887
00:57:11,415 --> 00:57:18,674
According to the records, that phone
call was made about an hour after

888
00:57:19,154 --> 00:57:24,585
the assassination, which means it
was a few minutes before Oswald was

889
00:57:24,589 --> 00:57:26,835
actually arrested for the crime.

890
00:57:27,404 --> 00:57:28,515
Pure garbage.

891
00:57:28,694 --> 00:57:29,955
Pure garbage.

892
00:57:30,254 --> 00:57:33,884
I did describe the phone call
that Michael and I had after

893
00:57:33,884 --> 00:57:35,325
the assassination when we were.

894
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:42,120
Commiserating with each other about
Kennedy's killing and, uh, thinking

895
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:48,180
that it was a conspiracy of, you know,
right wing radicals who had done it.

896
00:57:49,130 --> 00:57:54,480
Uh, so we both thought we knew , but
we didn't know who had done it.

897
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:55,590
Uh,

898
00:57:59,100 --> 00:58:02,190
I I hear that every now and
then that that one comes up.

899
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:03,090
Yeah.

900
00:58:03,570 --> 00:58:07,530
But, uh, I just, nothing to it.

901
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:17,010
On the morning after the assassination,
the first call the new president took

902
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:19,620
was from FBI director Jay Edgar Hoover.

903
00:58:20,340 --> 00:58:23,160
While we have the audio for all
the other calls from this period,

904
00:58:23,610 --> 00:58:25,920
for some reason this one was erase.

905
00:58:30,495 --> 00:58:34,875
Luckily, a transcript of this
call was declassified in 1993.

906
00:58:36,645 --> 00:58:42,705
The topic of conversation was the
evidence against Lee Harvey Oswald lbj.

907
00:58:43,635 --> 00:58:46,545
Have you established any more about
the visit to the Soviet Embassy

908
00:58:46,550 --> 00:58:50,205
in Mexico in September, Hoover?

909
00:58:51,705 --> 00:58:52,215
No.

910
00:58:52,305 --> 00:58:55,005
That's one angle that's very
confusing for this reason.

911
00:58:55,635 --> 00:58:58,605
We have up here, the tape and the
photograph of the man who was at the

912
00:58:58,605 --> 00:59:01,875
Soviet embassy using Oswald's name.

913
00:59:02,565 --> 00:59:05,775
That picture and the tape do
not correspond to this man's

914
00:59:05,775 --> 00:59:07,875
voice, nor do his appearance.

915
00:59:08,895 --> 00:59:12,345
In other words, it appears that
there is a second person who was

916
00:59:12,345 --> 00:59:13,875
at the Soviet Embassy down there.

917
00:59:18,655 --> 00:59:25,635
Lee was, in my opinion, not
somebody a spy agency would hire.

918
00:59:25,985 --> 00:59:29,575
I couldn't see him as
connected to the Soviet Union.

919
00:59:29,575 --> 00:59:31,615
I think they were very
happy to see him leave.

920
00:59:31,615 --> 00:59:36,865
Actually the possibility of a
communist conspiracy involving Oswald

921
00:59:37,045 --> 00:59:38,635
could have triggered World War ii.

922
00:59:39,325 --> 00:59:42,715
This was taken very seriously at the
highest levels of the government.

923
00:59:47,545 --> 00:59:52,585
Dick, yes, you and my man on that
permission and you're gonna do it.

924
00:59:52,915 --> 00:59:55,315
And don't tell me what you
can do and what you can't.

925
00:59:55,885 --> 00:59:59,065
This is a question that has a
good many more ramifications.

926
00:59:59,070 --> 01:00:04,435
And on the surface, we got to take this
out of the arena where they testifying

927
01:00:04,435 --> 01:00:10,045
at ku, Jeff and Castro did this and did
that, and, uh, kicking us into a war that

928
01:00:10,315 --> 01:00:12,625
can kill 40 million Americans in an hour.

929
01:00:13,375 --> 01:00:18,025
Now, the reason I asked Warrens cause he's
the chief justice of this country, He came

930
01:00:18,025 --> 01:00:22,975
down there and he told me no twice, and
I just pulled out what Hoover told me.

931
01:00:23,715 --> 01:00:25,815
About a little incident in Mexico sit in.

932
01:00:25,815 --> 01:00:28,905
I said, Now, I don't want Mr.

933
01:00:28,905 --> 01:00:32,505
Cru to be testifying for a
camera that he killed this fella.

934
01:00:33,195 --> 01:00:34,215
And he started crying.

935
01:00:34,215 --> 01:00:35,805
He said, Well, I won't turn you down.

936
01:00:35,805 --> 01:00:37,345
I'll just do whatever you say.

937
01:00:39,795 --> 01:00:44,175
It appears that LBJ bullied Earl Warren
into heading the commission by giving him

938
01:00:44,175 --> 01:00:49,155
the impression that there was evidence
for a communist conspiracy painting.

939
01:00:49,155 --> 01:00:53,145
Oswald as a lone nut may have been
seen as a moral imperative to avoid

940
01:00:53,145 --> 01:00:58,575
nuclear war, but a coverup of Oswald's
supposed communist ties may actually

941
01:00:58,575 --> 01:01:02,925
have served as a coverup for something
even more sinister and closer to home.

942
01:01:07,035 --> 01:01:12,195
When the Dallas police went to the
paint household, one of the detectives

943
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:18,825
wrote a report about taking out
several filing cabinets of notations

944
01:01:18,825 --> 01:01:20,535
and cards and maps, et cetera.

945
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:22,350
Of Castro sympathizers.

946
01:01:23,700 --> 01:01:25,049
This makes a very good case.

947
01:01:25,049 --> 01:01:28,980
I believe that Michael and Ruth
were involved in surveillance

948
01:01:28,980 --> 01:01:31,230
activities of the American left.

949
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:37,290
These cabinets existed until the
Warrant Commission, because there's

950
01:01:37,290 --> 01:01:40,470
several exhibit numbers in the Warrant
Commission that referred to them.

951
01:01:40,649 --> 01:01:44,100
But the big difference is when the
Warren Commission went through them,

952
01:01:44,730 --> 01:01:49,620
they only found something like one
letter from Ruth to one of her relatives.

953
01:01:50,430 --> 01:01:55,500
So in other words, if the original
report is accurate, somebody fiddled

954
01:01:55,770 --> 01:01:58,919
with the contents of those file cabinets.

955
01:02:00,060 --> 01:02:05,850
I learned a lot about what's written isn't
always true in newspapers and magazines.

956
01:02:06,839 --> 01:02:10,589
One magazine said the police took out.

957
01:02:11,985 --> 01:02:15,615
File boxes of Cuba sympathizers names?

958
01:02:16,005 --> 01:02:22,815
Well, they were my three boxes of, uh,
folk dance records, my three little

959
01:02:22,815 --> 01:02:31,215
file boxes of my college papers and a,
uh, projector for 16 millimeter camera.

960
01:02:31,785 --> 01:02:36,165
Um, those with the seven
boxes of Cuban names.

961
01:02:38,445 --> 01:02:43,125
This is one of the so-called filing
cabinets that contained, there's

962
01:02:43,130 --> 01:02:47,985
a report that they contained names
and info on Cuban sympathizers.

963
01:02:47,985 --> 01:02:49,245
Yeah, I think that's nonsense.

964
01:02:49,355 --> 01:02:51,705
This is who I used to work for years ago.

965
01:02:51,825 --> 01:02:53,205
That was a special agent.

966
01:02:53,205 --> 01:02:57,675
Did background investigations for
the government and uh, just, you

967
01:02:57,675 --> 01:02:58,875
know, for security clearances.

968
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:00,975
So I've got a natural curiosity.

969
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:06,120
in 2013, I found out that Ruth
Payne was living right here in Santa

970
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:07,860
Rosa, and a friendship developed.

971
01:03:07,860 --> 01:03:10,650
We're not best of friends, but you
know, she knows me well and she

972
01:03:11,130 --> 01:03:15,090
likes me enough that she's given me
some very interesting, uh, items.

973
01:03:15,509 --> 01:03:19,800
This entire album here is relating to
the pays and many things they've signed

974
01:03:19,805 --> 01:03:25,890
for me of, um, this is Ruth's box of FBI
investigative reports that she obtained

975
01:03:25,890 --> 01:03:27,690
under the Freedom of Information Act.

976
01:03:28,140 --> 01:03:29,970
She's read books, she's got a collection.

977
01:03:30,030 --> 01:03:33,270
Her notes are on here, and certainly
I'm sure she went through all

978
01:03:33,270 --> 01:03:34,710
of this and, and read all of it.

979
01:03:36,750 --> 01:03:39,450
She's an avid student of
the assassination herself.

980
01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:44,670
This is Ruth speaking to me back
in August of 2017, says, thanks

981
01:03:44,850 --> 01:03:47,830
for all the work investigating
what was available on the internet.

982
01:03:47,830 --> 01:03:52,650
She wanted me to find out about this, uh,
particular warrant commission exhibit.

983
01:03:52,710 --> 01:03:56,010
It says Commission exhibit number 4 58.

984
01:03:56,220 --> 01:03:59,490
There's certainly a lot of misinformation
traveling around the internet.

985
01:03:59,850 --> 01:04:02,910
All the things the police took
were taken without my permission.

986
01:04:03,810 --> 01:04:08,200
When the issue of the contents of the
file cabinets came up, Ruth's testimony

987
01:04:08,205 --> 01:04:13,530
was taken off the record and the exhibit
numbers were omitted without explanation.

988
01:04:14,910 --> 01:04:16,980
I don't think the pains
are hiding anything.

989
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:18,360
I really don't.

990
01:04:18,450 --> 01:04:20,970
She hasn't shy away from
talking about the assassination.

991
01:04:20,970 --> 01:04:24,060
I think she feels a little
bit of celebrity in herself.

992
01:04:24,210 --> 01:04:26,880
She's an historical figure in
terms of the assassination.

993
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:28,230
You know, she can't avoid that.

994
01:04:28,860 --> 01:04:33,120
The main accusation against the pains
is that they were used in some way, but

995
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:39,990
they were doing intelligence work looking
after radicals and communists and that the

996
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:42,660
looking after the oswalt was part of that.

997
01:04:42,870 --> 01:04:43,290
I don't know.

998
01:04:43,290 --> 01:04:45,960
There's so much that just
all of it can't be true.

999
01:04:46,470 --> 01:04:51,300
I have a sense that the pains, when I talk
to them, were speaking from the heart and

1000
01:04:51,300 --> 01:04:53,940
talking truthfully, speaking truthfully.

1001
01:04:54,150 --> 01:04:55,590
But can I say a hundred percent?

1002
01:04:55,590 --> 01:04:56,040
No.

1003
01:04:59,550 --> 01:05:03,600
She express to me Friday evening after
we had come from the police station,

1004
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:08,280
that she was very worried that this might
prevent her staying in the United States.

1005
01:05:09,780 --> 01:05:13,200
She could not imagine her husband
doing anything of this sort.

1006
01:05:13,390 --> 01:05:16,830
He, uh, never said anything
that she heard derogatory about.

1007
01:05:17,180 --> 01:05:23,190
Husband Marino's mother-in-law, that
is his mother, Margarite, invited

1008
01:05:23,190 --> 01:05:28,350
this photographer to come to the house
and that's why there are pictures.

1009
01:05:28,560 --> 01:05:32,250
And this picture was taken as they
were getting ready to go in to try

1010
01:05:32,250 --> 01:05:34,320
to see Lee at the police station.

1011
01:05:36,300 --> 01:05:42,120
I did see Marina later, but really
the last contact I had was the

1012
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:44,340
day after the assassination.

1013
01:05:46,530 --> 01:05:50,010
I guess the hardest part was not
knowing what was going on with Marina

1014
01:05:50,010 --> 01:05:51,960
and how she was and what she needed.

1015
01:05:54,090 --> 01:05:57,450
Marina was held in federal
protective custody for two months

1016
01:05:57,450 --> 01:05:59,010
following the assassination.

1017
01:05:59,370 --> 01:06:02,550
There are reports that she was
coerced into cooperating with the

1018
01:06:02,550 --> 01:06:04,830
FBI under threat of deportation.

1019
01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:05,880
Marina.

1020
01:06:06,450 --> 01:06:10,560
Do you believe that your husband
killed President Kennedy?

1021
01:06:11,270 --> 01:06:16,680
Well, I don't want to believe, uh, but,
uh, I have too much facts and fact.

1022
01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:19,980
Tell me, uh, let me shut Kennedy,

1023
01:06:24,030 --> 01:06:29,010
who gets two telephone calls on Sunday,
two days after the assassination

1024
01:06:29,010 --> 01:06:30,120
from Lee Oswald in prison.

1025
01:06:30,750 --> 01:06:33,160
Ruth Payne, He telephoned.

1026
01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:37,995
The first call, he was asking
me to contact a lawyer in New

1027
01:06:37,995 --> 01:06:40,230
York and gave me a phone number.

1028
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:44,370
I was quite surprised that he
was asking anything of me at this

1029
01:06:44,370 --> 01:06:48,060
point, and I was not terribly
keen on doing anything for him.

1030
01:06:48,060 --> 01:06:50,940
But I thought, yeah, he
needs representation.

1031
01:06:51,029 --> 01:06:52,560
And so I said I would call.

1032
01:06:52,950 --> 01:06:54,720
I did, but I didn't get any answer.

1033
01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:55,950
I mean, it just rang.

1034
01:06:56,400 --> 01:07:00,360
These people have given me a hearing
without legal representation or anything.

1035
01:07:01,390 --> 01:07:02,799
I didn't shoot anybody for that.

1036
01:07:02,799 --> 01:07:06,270
And then he called again later in the
evening to ask to speak to Marina,

1037
01:07:06,930 --> 01:07:08,310
cuz he didn't know where she was.

1038
01:07:08,910 --> 01:07:10,020
I said, Well, she's not here.

1039
01:07:11,355 --> 01:07:14,745
Those calls would've been a
footnote to the entire story.

1040
01:07:14,985 --> 01:07:18,735
They became important only because
they were the last telephone calls

1041
01:07:18,915 --> 01:07:22,035
that Lee Oswald made to anybody in the
world, and they were to Ruth Payne.

1042
01:07:22,065 --> 01:07:25,605
And the only person who can
say what Oswald said is Ruth.

1043
01:07:31,365 --> 01:07:32,335
He's been shot.

1044
01:07:32,625 --> 01:07:33,535
He's been shot.

1045
01:07:34,125 --> 01:07:36,555
Oswald was in custody for 48 hours.

1046
01:07:36,795 --> 01:07:40,335
But authorities denied that any
official records or recordings were

1047
01:07:40,335 --> 01:07:42,165
kept during his interrogations.

1048
01:07:44,925 --> 01:07:49,665
Millions watched on live TV as he
was killed by Jack Ruby, a local

1049
01:07:49,665 --> 01:07:54,045
strip club owner with connections to
both the mob and the police force.

1050
01:07:55,305 --> 01:07:59,685
My first thought was, Oh, and
Marina won't have to go to trial.

1051
01:08:00,675 --> 01:08:01,935
It'll be simpler.

1052
01:08:02,625 --> 01:08:03,795
Uh, so.

1053
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:07,250
I wasn't really a good thought.

1054
01:08:08,120 --> 01:08:08,420
Mrs.

1055
01:08:08,420 --> 01:08:13,279
Payne, you have been reluctant to speak
to television cameras before this evening.

1056
01:08:13,285 --> 01:08:14,960
Is there any particular reason for that?

1057
01:08:15,859 --> 01:08:21,050
Yes, I think, uh, it's a terrible
thing to judge a man before he is

1058
01:08:21,889 --> 01:08:26,389
brought to trial, and in this case
it's very difficult thing not to do.

1059
01:08:27,050 --> 01:08:32,389
The evidence was so incriminating just as
we, all of us, the nation saw it on the

1060
01:08:32,389 --> 01:08:34,609
television, but now of course, he's dead.

1061
01:08:34,819 --> 01:08:40,550
He has been in effect, judged quickly
and hanged, and there's no question

1062
01:08:40,550 --> 01:08:43,519
of ping people by what we say now.

1063
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:49,910
The world will never know the
true facts of what occurred.

1064
01:08:50,149 --> 01:08:54,649
My motives, the people that have so
much to gain and have such an material

1065
01:08:54,654 --> 01:09:01,849
motive for putting me in a position on
him, will never lift the true facts.

1066
01:09:04,325 --> 01:09:05,925
Board to the to the world.

1067
01:09:06,705 --> 01:09:09,205
Are they speaking very
high positions, Jack?

1068
01:09:09,545 --> 01:09:09,965
Yes.

1069
01:09:16,965 --> 01:09:22,185
Since 1959, I felt and knew that
Lee, uh, was not a defector,

1070
01:09:22,545 --> 01:09:24,345
that he was a government agent.

1071
01:09:24,705 --> 01:09:30,495
And I still believe, and still say
that Lee Harvey Oswell was set up.

1072
01:09:30,945 --> 01:09:32,895
We are all Marines family.

1073
01:09:32,955 --> 01:09:37,515
My oldest boy is in the airport
and Robert Lee's brother was

1074
01:09:37,515 --> 01:09:39,525
a Marine and Lee was a Marine.

1075
01:09:39,735 --> 01:09:43,845
And I know that this boy loved the Marines
and could not have been a defector.

1076
01:09:43,995 --> 01:09:45,285
This is a framework.

1077
01:09:47,145 --> 01:09:50,895
Mar Oswald was convinced
that he was an agent.

1078
01:09:51,655 --> 01:09:56,655
US agent said that when he
defected, she went to the state

1079
01:09:56,660 --> 01:10:00,945
department, got red carpet treatment,
they assured her not to worry.

1080
01:10:11,505 --> 01:10:16,935
The Sopr film is a visual record of
the assassination To think that if the

1081
01:10:16,940 --> 01:10:21,345
film did not exist, that home movie
of the assassination did not exist.

1082
01:10:21,735 --> 01:10:26,775
We would never be able to prove with any
certainty what happened at D De Plaza.

1083
01:10:41,955 --> 01:10:43,575
The president was hit in the head.

1084
01:10:44,085 --> 01:10:47,025
That's an unconfirmed report that
the president was hit in the head.

1085
01:10:47,684 --> 01:10:49,605
President's wife, Jackie
Kennedy was not hurt.

1086
01:10:49,605 --> 01:10:52,665
She walked into the hospital at
her husband's stretcher side.

1087
01:10:53,804 --> 01:10:55,184
I'm a native of Dallas.

1088
01:10:55,304 --> 01:10:57,674
November 22nd, 1963.

1089
01:10:58,365 --> 01:11:01,575
I was, um, downtown
cheering for my president.

1090
01:11:02,144 --> 01:11:06,855
My roommate was teaching at an elementary
school, and when it came on over the pa.

1091
01:11:07,995 --> 01:11:09,974
That the president had been shot.

1092
01:11:10,035 --> 01:11:11,804
The fifth graders in her class cheered.

1093
01:11:12,315 --> 01:11:16,155
These kids were hearing at home that
Kennedy was a communist, and that's

1094
01:11:16,155 --> 01:11:18,255
what was said everywhere in Dallas.

1095
01:11:36,165 --> 01:11:40,605
Ladies, gentlemen, welcome to the famous
Grassing all area here, Inve Plaza.

1096
01:11:40,815 --> 01:11:44,415
This is the, uh, infamous location where
President Kennedy was assassinated.

1097
01:11:44,775 --> 01:11:46,365
That happened 51 years ago.

1098
01:11:46,365 --> 01:11:49,785
Today, Officer Hargan ran up
here and when we got up here, I

1099
01:11:49,785 --> 01:11:51,165
was standing about right here.

1100
01:11:51,255 --> 01:11:55,095
He had blood on his helmet,
his face, his shirt.

1101
01:11:55,095 --> 01:11:56,325
He had blood and brain.

1102
01:11:56,325 --> 01:11:59,115
He was just recovering
with blood and brain.

1103
01:12:01,770 --> 01:12:04,300
This, I got it from, uh,
Arlington National Cemetery.

1104
01:12:04,305 --> 01:12:07,050
Actually, when I went to see, uh,
President Kennedy's grave site,

1105
01:12:07,170 --> 01:12:10,320
I'm more inclined to believe
that Oswald didn't act alone.

1106
01:12:10,890 --> 01:12:10,980
Yeah,

1107
01:12:14,610 --> 01:12:15,360
this man did it.

1108
01:12:16,530 --> 01:12:19,770
Lee Harvey Oswald, in my
opinion, I mean all the evidence

1109
01:12:19,770 --> 01:12:21,540
points to him, it was him.

1110
01:12:21,540 --> 01:12:25,620
He tried shooting a, a general Don
here, maybe months before this.

1111
01:12:26,370 --> 01:12:28,320
They found out it was
the same rifle he had

1112
01:12:32,190 --> 01:12:36,540
looking the situation over
back there, 40 steps behind me.

1113
01:12:36,540 --> 01:12:42,930
A bullet crashed through the window
and just missed me, and my arm was

1114
01:12:42,930 --> 01:12:47,700
laying on the desk and it was bleeding
in three places, which turned out to

1115
01:12:47,705 --> 01:12:49,830
be fragments from the shell casing.

1116
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:54,090
He had decided to take a
shot and try to kill Walker.

1117
01:12:54,599 --> 01:13:00,179
Who was a John Birch society leader, very
right wing Walker, made sense for him.

1118
01:13:00,389 --> 01:13:05,339
That photograph of him with the
guns, that was to say about Walker.

1119
01:13:05,759 --> 01:13:13,289
I did it and I'm glad seven or eight
days after the assassination, Ruth

1120
01:13:13,289 --> 01:13:17,969
Payne says she has to return a couple
of books to Marina out of nowhere.

1121
01:13:18,330 --> 01:13:21,780
In one of those books, she
accidentally finds this note,

1122
01:13:21,960 --> 01:13:26,160
which the FBI turns into a piece of
evidence about the walker shooting.

1123
01:13:26,519 --> 01:13:29,549
By the time that gets to the Warrant
commission, this is supposed to be

1124
01:13:29,549 --> 01:13:31,980
a precedent for Oswald shooting.

1125
01:13:31,980 --> 01:13:32,339
Kennedy.

1126
01:13:33,389 --> 01:13:37,559
If I hadn't taken that book to
Marina, we might not even know that

1127
01:13:37,565 --> 01:13:39,269
he had made the attempt on Walker.

1128
01:13:40,139 --> 01:13:43,259
I was sending things to Marina and of
course they looked through a book to

1129
01:13:43,259 --> 01:13:45,000
see what might fall out and out fell.

1130
01:13:45,004 --> 01:13:46,679
This note that I didn't know was there.

1131
01:13:47,040 --> 01:13:51,179
A couple of people from Secret
Service came to me and said, Mrs.

1132
01:13:51,179 --> 01:13:51,570
Vain.

1133
01:13:53,115 --> 01:13:54,555
He recognized this note.

1134
01:13:54,585 --> 01:13:56,775
No, I didn't recognize it.

1135
01:13:56,775 --> 01:13:57,915
Do I know the handwriting?

1136
01:13:58,065 --> 01:13:58,605
No.

1137
01:13:58,665 --> 01:13:59,685
Didn't know the handwriting.

1138
01:14:00,915 --> 01:14:06,135
She had hidden the note that he
wrote her that April when he went

1139
01:14:06,140 --> 01:14:12,165
out to try to shoot Edwin Walker, The
Secret Service returned that note to

1140
01:14:12,165 --> 01:14:14,935
Ruth saying, This is yours, isn't it

1141
01:14:16,335 --> 01:14:19,065
That's how suspicious Secret
Service was of Ruth Payne.

1142
01:14:19,215 --> 01:14:22,995
They thought, she wrote the note
of all the defeats in the Cold War.

1143
01:14:22,995 --> 01:14:27,195
The capture of Cuba by the
communists is the most unacceptable.

1144
01:14:28,995 --> 01:14:34,515
The best witness on the Walker case said
he saw two people there and it didn't

1145
01:14:34,515 --> 01:14:36,095
seem like either one of 'em was oswell.

1146
01:14:36,195 --> 01:14:39,105
A lot of people think, frankly, that
Walker set up the shooting himself.

1147
01:14:40,485 --> 01:14:44,355
The shooter was 30 yards away from
a stationary target, and he missed,

1148
01:14:45,615 --> 01:14:47,025
but yet we're supposed to believe.

1149
01:14:47,415 --> 01:14:52,275
That Oswald hit a moving target
from as far away as 270 feet.

1150
01:14:53,655 --> 01:14:56,775
There were seven fingerprints taken
off the so-called Walker note.

1151
01:14:57,135 --> 01:14:58,995
None of them matched Lee.

1152
01:14:59,505 --> 01:15:04,605
None of them matched
Marina other than Marina.

1153
01:15:04,905 --> 01:15:08,595
Ruth Payne has been history's most
important witness against Lee Harvey.

1154
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:13,875
Oswald Ruth in her garage provided
much of the incriminating evidence and

1155
01:15:13,875 --> 01:15:18,165
the Walker note wasn't the only piece
that curiously popped up after the

1156
01:15:18,165 --> 01:15:19,905
initial police search of Ruth's home.

1157
01:15:20,775 --> 01:15:24,675
The infamous backyard photos were
found in the second police search

1158
01:15:24,825 --> 01:15:29,355
the day after the assassination, and
Ruth later handed over two cameras

1159
01:15:29,445 --> 01:15:31,155
that had supposedly been overlooked.

1160
01:15:31,545 --> 01:15:35,595
One was matched to the backyard
photos, the other was a miniature

1161
01:15:35,595 --> 01:15:39,315
spy camera, which has intrigued
researchers for decades.

1162
01:15:40,769 --> 01:15:45,420
Two weeks after the assassination, as
doubts about Oswald's trip to Mexico were

1163
01:15:45,420 --> 01:15:51,059
surfacing, Ruth miraculously found several
incriminating items sitting in a drawer

1164
01:15:51,120 --> 01:15:53,010
in the room where the Oswalds had stayed.

1165
01:15:55,980 --> 01:15:57,120
You studied Russian?

1166
01:15:57,480 --> 01:15:57,870
Yes.

1167
01:15:59,190 --> 01:16:01,710
When did you first begin to study Russian?

1168
01:16:04,590 --> 01:16:07,830
I think it was around, um, 57.

1169
01:16:07,889 --> 01:16:13,769
I been working with a young Quaker group
that was interested in cultural exchange.

1170
01:16:13,830 --> 01:16:14,940
Yes, it just happened.

1171
01:16:15,120 --> 01:16:19,080
Just a coincidence that you chose
Russian as a language of your interest?

1172
01:16:19,090 --> 01:16:20,099
That just a coincidence?

1173
01:16:20,099 --> 01:16:21,300
No, it wasn't a coincidence at all.

1174
01:16:21,300 --> 01:16:23,730
I'm telling you that's because
I felt there was, it was really

1175
01:16:23,730 --> 01:16:27,450
important to communicate among,
between our countries in particular.

1176
01:16:27,450 --> 01:16:31,800
This was era of the,
uh, Cold War, so well.

1177
01:16:31,800 --> 01:16:35,940
Okay, and is it a coincidence
that it was you, Mrs.

1178
01:16:35,940 --> 01:16:38,010
Um Payne?

1179
01:16:38,519 --> 01:16:38,760
Yeah.

1180
01:16:38,960 --> 01:16:39,380
Yes.

1181
01:16:40,770 --> 01:16:47,040
Who directed Lee to the job that put
him in the Texas School book Depository?

1182
01:16:47,790 --> 01:16:48,000
Yes.

1183
01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:51,450
I think that was clearly a coincidence,
and it's just a coincidence that

1184
01:16:51,450 --> 01:16:55,050
the gun that supposedly killed the
president was located in your house.

1185
01:16:57,420 --> 01:16:58,620
What do you mean coincidence?

1186
01:16:58,680 --> 01:16:59,820
I mean, it just happened.

1187
01:16:59,820 --> 01:17:03,990
It's just all of these things just
sort of happened all around you.

1188
01:17:04,500 --> 01:17:07,440
That's coincidence Now, Mrs.

1189
01:17:07,445 --> 01:17:08,880
Payne, I want to tell you something.

1190
01:17:09,810 --> 01:17:13,520
I've talked to you about mere
coincidences, but you can see that's

1191
01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:14,600
a little guilt by association.

1192
01:17:14,620 --> 01:17:15,040
Yes.

1193
01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:20,730
You can see how when I place questions
to you like this, that people can come to

1194
01:17:20,730 --> 01:17:22,680
conclusions that you feel are wrong about.

1195
01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:23,160
That's true.

1196
01:17:26,235 --> 01:17:29,264
In the late fifties, Ruth
Payne was in charge of a Quaker

1197
01:17:29,264 --> 01:17:30,825
cultural exchange program.

1198
01:17:31,425 --> 01:17:35,505
The EastWest Contacts Committee
set up Pen pal correspondence

1199
01:17:35,509 --> 01:17:37,605
between young Soviets and Americans.

1200
01:17:38,505 --> 01:17:41,715
Ruth's group had a liaison in
the State Department who was in

1201
01:17:41,715 --> 01:17:43,605
close communication with the cia.

1202
01:17:44,325 --> 01:17:47,384
Some researchers believe that
Ruth May have been recruited as an

1203
01:17:47,384 --> 01:17:49,785
intelligence asset during this time.

1204
01:17:51,134 --> 01:17:55,785
The CIA was careful not to be directly
involved in that, but I think was

1205
01:17:55,785 --> 01:17:59,235
in fact giving a certain amount
of support to that sort of thing.

1206
01:18:00,075 --> 01:18:03,315
I think the story is the pains were used.

1207
01:18:04,184 --> 01:18:09,525
Uh, I think they were given very
little information and I think they

1208
01:18:09,525 --> 01:18:11,625
weren't very real sense victimized.

1209
01:18:17,715 --> 01:18:20,625
How do you feel about this stuff
proliferating on the internet?

1210
01:18:21,795 --> 01:18:24,195
Well, I don't look, That's
how I feel about it.

1211
01:18:25,125 --> 01:18:26,055
Just live my life.

1212
01:18:26,055 --> 01:18:27,825
Separate from that as best I can.

1213
01:18:29,055 --> 01:18:33,675
I was surprised after there was a little
article in the local paper about me

1214
01:18:34,965 --> 01:18:37,065
and some of the comments were horrible.

1215
01:18:37,995 --> 01:18:43,215
It's an open internet, so it has a
lot of things that are, are not true.

1216
01:18:47,265 --> 01:18:47,835
I have

1217
01:18:52,785 --> 01:18:53,555
take it now.

1218
01:18:53,575 --> 01:18:53,995
Yes.

1219
01:18:54,095 --> 01:18:54,515
Yes.

1220
01:18:54,695 --> 01:18:55,275
All right.

1221
01:18:55,275 --> 01:18:56,275
You bid clubs first?

1222
01:18:56,280 --> 01:18:57,835
I did bid club first.

1223
01:18:57,835 --> 01:18:58,315
Okay.

1224
01:18:58,315 --> 01:19:00,675
So I think So

1225
01:19:04,125 --> 01:19:05,955
we don't get photographed every day.

1226
01:19:06,525 --> 01:19:06,975
You don't?

1227
01:19:07,455 --> 01:19:08,175
No.

1228
01:19:08,345 --> 01:19:08,695
Oh,

1229
01:19:12,045 --> 01:19:14,955
I think Ruth does much more than I do.

1230
01:19:17,325 --> 01:19:18,175
Look fast.

1231
01:19:20,460 --> 01:19:23,309
In the aftermath of the
assassination, Ruth and Michael

1232
01:19:23,309 --> 01:19:24,599
patched up their marriage.

1233
01:19:25,019 --> 01:19:29,130
Michael moved back in and they
stayed together until 1970 when

1234
01:19:29,135 --> 01:19:33,360
they finally did divorce for
Good over the following decades.

1235
01:19:33,510 --> 01:19:36,840
Ruth worked in various schools
as a principal and psychologist.

1236
01:19:37,590 --> 01:19:41,429
She raised two children, mostly
on her own, and went to graduate

1237
01:19:41,429 --> 01:19:46,889
school for a master's in child
Psychology, 40 above the bottom.

1238
01:19:46,894 --> 01:19:51,450
Later on in her life, Ruth Payne goes
down to Nicaragua and there were reports

1239
01:19:51,450 --> 01:19:58,410
of her going to San Sympathizer meetings
and taking notations of what went down for

1240
01:19:58,410 --> 01:20:01,139
many, many people, the veneer come off.

1241
01:20:01,380 --> 01:20:04,050
Ruth and Michael Payne, I mean,
they're just not credible anymore.

1242
01:20:04,559 --> 01:20:08,610
I know woman who in the early
1990s worked with Ruth Payne as a

1243
01:20:08,615 --> 01:20:10,620
Christian peace activist in Nicaragua.

1244
01:20:11,429 --> 01:20:17,400
This was during the time of the Civil War
in Nicaragua, during the Reagan and Bush.

1245
01:20:17,400 --> 01:20:18,120
One years.

1246
01:20:18,570 --> 01:20:20,190
It was a contentious time down there.

1247
01:20:20,370 --> 01:20:25,230
It was very clear that the CIA was
supporting the so-called contra freedom

1248
01:20:25,230 --> 01:20:31,710
buyers all the way the Contras were
the ones opposing the Sanda revolution.

1249
01:20:32,490 --> 01:20:35,790
The Christian group that this woman
and Ruth were involved with was

1250
01:20:35,795 --> 01:20:40,980
called Proco, and they were helping
the poor people of Nicaragua who

1251
01:20:40,980 --> 01:20:43,770
naturally sided with the Sandinistas.

1252
01:20:44,310 --> 01:20:49,650
And because of this, these Christian
peace groups were often heavily monitored

1253
01:20:49,740 --> 01:20:52,620
by our US intelligence agencies.

1254
01:20:55,200 --> 01:20:58,620
My work in Nicaragua was
with a Quaker organization.

1255
01:20:58,860 --> 01:21:03,180
We had a project to help the
poorest of the poor in Nicarag.

1256
01:21:03,630 --> 01:21:06,630
And at one of these meetings,
a woman showed up and proceeded

1257
01:21:06,630 --> 01:21:08,280
to accuse me of a lot of things.

1258
01:21:09,720 --> 01:21:16,320
She introduced herself as Ruth Payne
representing the Quakers, and I said,

1259
01:21:16,325 --> 01:21:18,690
Well, you're not the Quaker Ruth Payne.

1260
01:21:18,690 --> 01:21:20,310
Who knew Marina Oswald?

1261
01:21:20,315 --> 01:21:20,700
Are you?

1262
01:21:21,420 --> 01:21:27,990
This woman told me that after Sue
Wheaton had told people about Ruth's

1263
01:21:28,200 --> 01:21:33,300
association with the assassination,
which they did not know about, then

1264
01:21:33,300 --> 01:21:35,430
they became even more suspicious of her.

1265
01:21:36,060 --> 01:21:44,070
She and others in their organization
believed that Ruth was a CIA agent or

1266
01:21:44,070 --> 01:21:48,840
asset who was down there for the purpose
of gathering information about the group.

1267
01:21:50,280 --> 01:21:53,130
So Ruth had a photographer
that came and was with her.

1268
01:21:53,220 --> 01:21:56,280
He was there snapping everybody,
and that's when they said, Well,

1269
01:21:56,280 --> 01:22:00,240
we're doing this article for the
Nicaragua network, but Nicaragua

1270
01:22:00,240 --> 01:22:02,460
Network had never heard such a story.

1271
01:22:03,465 --> 01:22:06,045
They were taking everybody's
picture at a meeting and we tried

1272
01:22:06,045 --> 01:22:07,575
to take their picture and they left.

1273
01:22:09,285 --> 01:22:14,985
I think in her being one of the
primary defenders, if not the primary

1274
01:22:14,985 --> 01:22:16,695
defender of the official story.

1275
01:22:17,085 --> 01:22:20,745
She's been a disinformation agent
about the Kennedy assassination.

1276
01:22:21,675 --> 01:22:25,735
So even if she didn't have prior
knowledge, she continued for whatever

1277
01:22:25,740 --> 01:22:30,015
her motives were, whether threat
or pure belief to go along with it.

1278
01:22:30,795 --> 01:22:32,715
It's so easy to justify what you do.

1279
01:22:33,285 --> 01:22:35,835
You know, it is for any of,

1280
01:22:44,625 --> 01:22:47,535
I knew that eventually I had to
start asking Ruth some even more

1281
01:22:47,540 --> 01:22:52,305
uncomfortable questions, even if it
could jeopardize our relationship

1282
01:22:53,445 --> 01:22:56,865
to let her story go unchallenged
would be a disservice to history.

1283
01:22:58,095 --> 01:22:58,655
Ready?

1284
01:22:58,655 --> 01:22:58,935
Yes.

1285
01:22:59,820 --> 01:23:03,930
I've been studying this case for the
last few years and trying to be objective

1286
01:23:03,930 --> 01:23:05,970
and taking all different viewpoints.

1287
01:23:06,060 --> 01:23:06,420
Oh, really?

1288
01:23:06,510 --> 01:23:06,720
Okay.

1289
01:23:06,720 --> 01:23:08,850
Try not to be too abied Sucks.

1290
01:23:11,340 --> 01:23:15,000
, it seems maybe a little extreme to
completely dismiss the questions

1291
01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:18,420
of conspiracy with all that's
come out over the years to you.

1292
01:23:18,420 --> 01:23:19,200
It's extreme.

1293
01:23:19,440 --> 01:23:19,770
Yeah.

1294
01:23:19,830 --> 01:23:25,440
To dismiss the idea of conspiracy, to me
it's, uh, it's not extreme because the

1295
01:23:25,445 --> 01:23:31,800
things I saw were so telling everything
I saw pointed to him and him alone.

1296
01:23:33,390 --> 01:23:37,860
Well, this, this is some sort of CIA
declassified document about your sister.

1297
01:23:40,350 --> 01:23:40,830
Yeah.

1298
01:23:42,360 --> 01:23:42,720
Okay.

1299
01:23:42,720 --> 01:23:47,100
It's possible researchers have
determined that Ruth's sister,

1300
01:23:47,160 --> 01:23:52,680
Sylvia, Worked as a psychologist for
the cia, likely beginning in 1954.

1301
01:23:53,640 --> 01:23:57,900
The document indicates that she
was still working there as of 1961.

1302
01:23:59,250 --> 01:24:06,060
She had studied psychology, I guess, and
she, uh, was helping to develop tests

1303
01:24:06,060 --> 01:24:11,190
of intelligence that didn't involve
language because they wanted to get

1304
01:24:11,190 --> 01:24:13,470
bright people working on the oil fields.

1305
01:24:15,450 --> 01:24:17,370
So that's all I know about what she did.

1306
01:24:22,290 --> 01:24:25,740
Ruth's father, William Avery
Hyde did extensive work for

1307
01:24:25,740 --> 01:24:29,100
the Agency for International
Development in Latin America.

1308
01:24:30,120 --> 01:24:35,250
A I was a well known cover for CIA
personnel, and Hyde filed reports

1309
01:24:35,250 --> 01:24:37,260
that were directly routed to the cia.

1310
01:24:38,370 --> 01:24:41,760
This document reveals that he
was under consideration by the

1311
01:24:41,760 --> 01:24:44,670
CIA for covert use in Vietnam.

1312
01:24:47,780 --> 01:24:52,710
My family had a hostility to
communism because my parents had been

1313
01:24:52,710 --> 01:24:54,720
active in the cooperative movement.

1314
01:24:54,810 --> 01:24:59,730
This is New York City where the,
where the local, um, Communist

1315
01:24:59,880 --> 01:25:01,770
party people wanted to take over.

1316
01:25:02,190 --> 01:25:06,600
Part of the things I was raised up
knowing is that, uh, uh, communist

1317
01:25:06,605 --> 01:25:10,950
would, uh, think that the end
justifies the means, and my folks

1318
01:25:10,950 --> 01:25:13,170
didn't feel that way at all, nor do I.

1319
01:25:14,430 --> 01:25:18,330
During the Cold War, the government
recruited many informants and agents

1320
01:25:18,420 --> 01:25:23,070
among liberals who saw communism as the
great threat to freedom and democracy.

1321
01:25:24,390 --> 01:25:24,540
Risk.

1322
01:25:24,630 --> 01:25:26,580
Family seems to fit this description.

1323
01:25:30,360 --> 01:25:34,860
It seems that sometimes it's
families that are employed within

1324
01:25:34,860 --> 01:25:36,090
the intelligence community.

1325
01:25:36,420 --> 01:25:37,290
Whole families.

1326
01:25:38,010 --> 01:25:38,550
Yeah.

1327
01:25:38,760 --> 01:25:40,320
Multiple members of the family.

1328
01:25:40,965 --> 01:25:45,405
You mean therefore, I wasn't
Also . That's one of the accusations

1329
01:25:45,915 --> 01:25:49,845
I see in the summer of 1963.

1330
01:25:49,965 --> 01:25:53,715
Ruth Payne set out on a long road
trip to visit friends and relatives.

1331
01:25:54,195 --> 01:25:58,035
She stayed on Naan Island and later
spent several days at her sister's

1332
01:25:58,040 --> 01:26:00,075
house in the Washington DC area.

1333
01:26:00,435 --> 01:26:04,215
Her last stop in late September
was to pick up Marin Oswald in

1334
01:26:04,215 --> 01:26:08,475
New Orleans and bring her and the
Oswald's belongings back to Dallas.

1335
01:26:08,865 --> 01:26:12,375
It's right around this time that
Lee Oswald allegedly visits the

1336
01:26:12,375 --> 01:26:14,445
Soviet Embassy in Mexico City.

1337
01:26:14,565 --> 01:26:19,935
Although we know that even j Edgar Hoover
had doubts about that by early October.

1338
01:26:20,175 --> 01:26:23,325
Oswald is back in Dallas, where
Ruth soon helps him get the

1339
01:26:23,325 --> 01:26:24,825
job at the book depository.

1340
01:26:25,755 --> 01:26:28,125
Five weeks later, the president is dead.

1341
01:26:32,805 --> 01:26:36,165
Do you see why people take these
connections as being suspicious?

1342
01:26:37,400 --> 01:26:37,880
Yeah.

1343
01:26:43,190 --> 01:26:47,270
Long term, I'm hoping that
real history will prevail.

1344
01:26:48,500 --> 01:26:53,210
Max Holland has been a researcher,
especially looking at what the Warren

1345
01:26:53,210 --> 01:26:56,930
Commission did and what they didn't do,
what they knew, and what they didn't know.

1346
01:26:57,110 --> 01:26:58,430
That's good research.

1347
01:26:59,540 --> 01:27:01,550
I have met Ruth.

1348
01:27:01,850 --> 01:27:07,310
I instantly felt an affinity for her
because I went to the same college,

1349
01:27:07,310 --> 01:27:12,890
Antioch College, and I also worked for the
Quakers for a couple years in Washington.

1350
01:27:13,400 --> 01:27:16,010
I knew her mentality.

1351
01:27:16,460 --> 01:27:20,360
She's not duplicitous or
there's not a person hiding

1352
01:27:20,360 --> 01:27:22,220
behind the person she presents.

1353
01:27:22,820 --> 01:27:26,480
She's, you know, probably one of the
most above board people I've ever met.

1354
01:27:27,320 --> 01:27:29,480
Quakers often tend to be like that.

1355
01:27:30,080 --> 01:27:34,610
They were very, very good people
and therefore so ironic that

1356
01:27:34,610 --> 01:27:36,440
they were caught up in it.

1357
01:27:36,839 --> 01:27:40,589
But in a way, thank goodness it
was them and not somebody else.

1358
01:27:40,799 --> 01:27:43,620
Ruth has behaved awfully, awfully well.

1359
01:27:43,889 --> 01:27:49,349
She handled it just by being
honest every step of the way.

1360
01:27:49,559 --> 01:27:54,419
I think that they were very,
very innocent and maybe their

1361
01:27:54,419 --> 01:27:56,190
innocence was a kind of shield.

1362
01:27:58,230 --> 01:28:03,120
A favorite tactic of conspiracy
theorists is to make accusations

1363
01:28:03,125 --> 01:28:08,250
that anybody who they disagree with
as a connection with intelligence

1364
01:28:08,280 --> 01:28:10,320
community, it's been made against me.

1365
01:28:10,379 --> 01:28:12,719
It's been made against Ruth and Michael.

1366
01:28:12,839 --> 01:28:17,969
The only explanation could be that we're
part of the coverup paid by the cia,

1367
01:28:17,969 --> 01:28:27,719
or, uh, for better or worse, I did write
one article for a CIA published journal.

1368
01:28:27,839 --> 01:28:32,370
So people have turned that into
the fact that I work for the cia.

1369
01:28:33,060 --> 01:28:36,840
I was aware they gave monetary awards
for the best articles of the year.

1370
01:28:36,990 --> 01:28:40,530
That's how I earned my living
is getting paid for my writing.

1371
01:28:41,370 --> 01:28:45,390
So I accepted the award, of course,
because it was a thousand dollars.

1372
01:28:49,200 --> 01:28:55,170
Priscilla McMillan had remarkable
connection because she was

1373
01:28:55,170 --> 01:28:57,180
chosen to interview Oswald.

1374
01:28:57,300 --> 01:29:02,190
Then, because she was good in
Russian, she was able to talk with

1375
01:29:02,195 --> 01:29:04,710
Marina after the assassination.

1376
01:29:04,800 --> 01:29:09,600
Then they became friends, and then she
wrote a book called Marina and Lee, and

1377
01:29:09,600 --> 01:29:12,270
it's very personal about the two of them.

1378
01:29:13,050 --> 01:29:19,500
She gave me the right to write
the truth as I saw it, no

1379
01:29:19,500 --> 01:29:22,710
matter how unfavorable it might.

1380
01:29:24,675 --> 01:29:29,955
They say there's a document that calls
you a winning collaborator of the cia.

1381
01:29:30,615 --> 01:29:31,635
What do you make of that?

1382
01:29:31,695 --> 01:29:32,685
A leading collaborator.

1383
01:29:32,775 --> 01:29:33,585
An unwitting.

1384
01:29:33,585 --> 01:29:34,905
A witting asset.

1385
01:29:35,355 --> 01:29:36,555
An unwitting asset.

1386
01:29:36,695 --> 01:29:40,025
I think they say wit, so I
guess that means waiting.

1387
01:29:40,025 --> 01:29:42,265
No, I I was just waiting.

1388
01:29:42,265 --> 01:29:45,645
Or me . No.

1389
01:29:47,745 --> 01:29:50,565
You applied to work for the cia?

1390
01:29:52,925 --> 01:29:53,655
Apparently I did.

1391
01:29:53,660 --> 01:29:55,935
In the summer of 1953.

1392
01:29:56,685 --> 01:29:57,795
Was it 53?

1393
01:29:58,245 --> 01:30:04,525
I've seen that date, but I think while
I was in college, which would've been

1394
01:30:04,530 --> 01:30:10,965
summer of 49, I may, I might have not
only was Priscilla Johnson McMillan

1395
01:30:10,965 --> 01:30:13,365
classified as a winning collaborator.

1396
01:30:13,665 --> 01:30:17,325
She was also debriefed by the
CIA on multiple occasions.

1397
01:30:18,165 --> 01:30:23,760
In a 1962 contact report, the CIA
officer writes, I think that Ms.

1398
01:30:23,760 --> 01:30:27,030
Johnson can be encouraged to write
pretty much the articles we want.

1399
01:30:30,030 --> 01:30:36,179
I was convinced that she will be the
right, right person to work with.

1400
01:30:37,450 --> 01:30:42,750
She convinced me that it would
be very important for history.

1401
01:30:43,650 --> 01:30:46,509
Try to explain why such a things happen.

1402
01:30:46,860 --> 01:30:48,509
Marina Oswald Porter.

1403
01:30:49,139 --> 01:30:50,389
Good evening, Marina.

1404
01:30:50,950 --> 01:30:51,509
Hello.

1405
01:30:51,509 --> 01:30:52,620
Good evening to you too.

1406
01:30:53,849 --> 01:30:55,980
Marina Oswald a hard time.

1407
01:30:55,980 --> 01:30:59,099
There is one person's voice
obviously missing from this story.

1408
01:31:00,269 --> 01:31:03,750
Marina Oswald was only 22 at
the time of the assassination.

1409
01:31:04,320 --> 01:31:07,950
She's in her early eighties now,
still living in the Dallas area.

1410
01:31:08,759 --> 01:31:12,179
Marina had long been a convincing
witness proclaiming Oswald's.

1411
01:31:12,840 --> 01:31:15,630
But in the eighties and
nineties, she became an outspoken

1412
01:31:15,630 --> 01:31:17,130
critic of the official story.

1413
01:31:18,509 --> 01:31:22,200
She did a few interviews during this
time, but it was clear that most of

1414
01:31:22,200 --> 01:31:26,309
the media had no intention of taking
her seriously, and she has refused

1415
01:31:26,309 --> 01:31:29,070
all requests for the last 25 years.

1416
01:31:29,860 --> 01:31:33,960
To all the evidence conspiracy
theories are intact, questions do

1417
01:31:33,960 --> 01:31:36,240
remain, and people don't believe.

1418
01:31:37,049 --> 01:31:39,030
Among those who don't believe are Mrs.

1419
01:31:39,030 --> 01:31:41,580
Kenneth Porter, the former
wife of Olivia Harvey Oswell.

1420
01:31:41,700 --> 01:31:44,130
Do you believe that he did
not pull the trigger, that he

1421
01:31:44,134 --> 01:31:45,809
did not fire the fatal shots?

1422
01:31:46,769 --> 01:31:52,469
Well, he definitely did not fire,
uh, the shots according to all the

1423
01:31:52,469 --> 01:31:54,179
evidence that I have right now.

1424
01:31:54,480 --> 01:31:58,290
You acknowledge that Lee Harvey Oswald
was a man who had been abusive to you.

1425
01:31:58,469 --> 01:32:01,570
You have said recently that you
did not love him in any way.

1426
01:32:02,160 --> 01:32:02,690
I did not.

1427
01:32:02,695 --> 01:32:04,259
I never said I did not love him.

1428
01:32:04,469 --> 01:32:05,170
Did you love him?

1429
01:32:05,170 --> 01:32:07,210
I said, of course I did.

1430
01:32:08,160 --> 01:32:09,929
Why are you so eager now?

1431
01:32:10,530 --> 01:32:14,670
To protect his memory when at
the time you agreed that very

1432
01:32:14,670 --> 01:32:15,990
likely he was the assassin.

1433
01:32:16,590 --> 01:32:22,469
Yes, I did believe in, in government
of this country and law, and

1434
01:32:22,469 --> 01:32:26,700
I assume blindly that what I
have been told must be correct.

1435
01:32:26,790 --> 01:32:30,030
But the fact, But the fact is that
there have been a number of independent

1436
01:32:30,030 --> 01:32:32,790
investigations now by independent
journalists and by independent authors,

1437
01:32:32,790 --> 01:32:34,440
and they also have come to the conclusion.

1438
01:32:34,740 --> 01:32:37,550
They have come to the conclusion,
not they've come to the conclusion.

1439
01:32:37,920 --> 01:32:45,030
In 1968, Marina testified that
the Secret Service told her you

1440
01:32:45,030 --> 01:32:46,710
were associated with the cia.

1441
01:32:47,250 --> 01:32:47,490
Yeah.

1442
01:32:47,490 --> 01:32:49,050
Well, so what am I
supposed to do with this?

1443
01:32:49,590 --> 01:32:50,610
What's your reaction?

1444
01:32:51,179 --> 01:32:52,559
Why would they tell her that?

1445
01:32:53,639 --> 01:32:57,059
I had the impression it was more her
brother-in-law rather than Secret

1446
01:32:57,059 --> 01:33:00,929
Service or somebody that, that should
have told her to stay clear of me.

1447
01:33:02,595 --> 01:33:05,775
Did you stay in touch with
Marina after the assassination?

1448
01:33:06,015 --> 01:33:07,695
We arranged twice to get together.

1449
01:33:07,695 --> 01:33:12,915
Once with, um, after she had
testified at the Warren Commission.

1450
01:33:13,065 --> 01:33:18,045
Then one other time after she
bought a house, she wanted to

1451
01:33:18,045 --> 01:33:21,465
show it to me and I went over
and we visited with our children.

1452
01:33:21,495 --> 01:33:28,695
You know, it was just very sad
because the, what had happened in

1453
01:33:28,700 --> 01:33:32,835
the Kennedy being killed was the
biggest thing in either our lives,

1454
01:33:32,835 --> 01:33:35,835
and it was just an awful, awful thing.

1455
01:33:36,435 --> 01:33:44,955
So, um, I didn't pursue seeing her more
and then she got taken up by other people

1456
01:33:44,955 --> 01:33:46,575
who thought there was a conspiracy.

1457
01:33:47,145 --> 01:33:54,195
Wouldn't it be nice to think it wasn't
he, if you're the wife, I finally

1458
01:33:54,200 --> 01:33:58,155
did get ahold of Marina's phone
number, and she actually answered,

1459
01:33:59,325 --> 01:34:00,735
Marina was very friendly trying to.

1460
01:34:01,304 --> 01:34:02,835
But she still declined an interview.

1461
01:34:03,795 --> 01:34:07,665
She told me not to waste my life
on this, that it's too late, and

1462
01:34:07,665 --> 01:34:09,014
that the truth will never come out.

1463
01:34:17,235 --> 01:34:21,345
The official story just does not stand
up to scrutiny at all, and those who

1464
01:34:21,345 --> 01:34:24,915
believe it are not invested enough, and
I'd even go so far as to say they're

1465
01:34:24,915 --> 01:34:29,715
not patriotic enough to try to learn a
little bit of very important history.

1466
01:34:29,985 --> 01:34:30,705
It's all out there.

1467
01:34:30,705 --> 01:34:36,165
Now, one of the things that you
study, if you try and take in the big

1468
01:34:36,165 --> 01:34:41,385
picture, is what happened to American
foreign policy after when Kennedy

1469
01:34:41,385 --> 01:34:46,035
was assassinated, there was not one
American combat troop in Vietnam.

1470
01:34:47,175 --> 01:34:53,235
By 1967, there were over half a
million here, American foreign policy

1471
01:34:53,535 --> 01:34:58,125
becomes much more militant, much
more violent in its third world.

1472
01:34:59,340 --> 01:35:03,840
In the coming years, as the Kennedy
case is better understood, we'll have a

1473
01:35:03,840 --> 01:35:05,790
less exceptionalist view of ourselves.

1474
01:35:06,330 --> 01:35:09,300
We don't want to look at ourselves
as a shining city on a hill.

1475
01:35:09,390 --> 01:35:10,800
That's simply a fantasy.

1476
01:35:11,250 --> 01:35:16,560
The failure of the war Commission
truly did contribute to the decline

1477
01:35:16,560 --> 01:35:20,040
of American democracy and belief
in the government, and a cynicism

1478
01:35:20,370 --> 01:35:21,900
that permeates the system today.

1479
01:35:22,980 --> 01:35:26,400
The direction we're heading now is, is
one that's quite terrifying, Endless war,

1480
01:35:26,670 --> 01:35:31,140
the militarization of our own police,
the huge incarceration state we have.

1481
01:35:31,410 --> 01:35:32,850
It's a frightening situation we're in.

1482
01:35:33,810 --> 01:35:35,850
It's part of our national legacy.

1483
01:35:36,030 --> 01:35:39,450
What happened here, it's part of what
steered us in the direction of the

1484
01:35:39,830 --> 01:35:41,250
national security state we have today.

1485
01:35:41,310 --> 01:35:45,360
We're not told the truth about major
policy decisions for decades afterwards,

1486
01:35:45,365 --> 01:35:49,200
if ever, and as a result, we have a
hidden history of the United States.

1487
01:35:50,070 --> 01:35:51,420
There's no mystery here.

1488
01:35:53,130 --> 01:35:54,510
It's all self-evident.

1489
01:35:55,230 --> 01:35:56,130
It was a coup.

1490
01:35:56,880 --> 01:36:01,740
It was designed to be a false mystery,
and the debate would be eternal and

1491
01:36:01,740 --> 01:36:05,580
the focus on why it was done forgotten.

1492
01:36:06,870 --> 01:36:12,210
There's a lot of people who don't like to
think the worst about their government,

1493
01:36:13,110 --> 01:36:18,269
who don't want to believe that the Warren
Commission was a deliberate cover up, and

1494
01:36:18,300 --> 01:36:23,309
that Oswald was really an agent of his
government and the people around Oswald

1495
01:36:23,730 --> 01:36:26,760
framed him for a crime he didn't commit.

1496
01:36:27,450 --> 01:36:30,180
It's not mom apple pie in America.

1497
01:36:30,480 --> 01:36:35,250
To think things like that in order
to commit yourself to truth here,

1498
01:36:35,849 --> 01:36:41,700
you're changing your very identity
from a citizen of a democracy

1499
01:36:42,570 --> 01:36:47,160
to subject of a military empire.

1500
01:36:48,945 --> 01:36:49,665
A big step.

1501
01:36:58,394 --> 01:37:02,355
Their theory is that you and Michael
were involved in surveillance

1502
01:37:02,355 --> 01:37:04,365
activities of the radical left.

1503
01:37:05,085 --> 01:37:08,594
What  that you and Michael
were involved in Surveillance

1504
01:37:08,594 --> 01:37:10,665
activities of the radical left.

1505
01:37:12,344 --> 01:37:17,535
Uh, and that watching it would be
the radical left Cuban sympathizers.

1506
01:37:18,315 --> 01:37:20,384
Oh, communists.

1507
01:37:21,735 --> 01:37:23,205
Oh, absolute news to me.

1508
01:37:23,205 --> 01:37:25,545
I wasn't, was not aware
of surveilling anybody.

1509
01:37:26,844 --> 01:37:29,535
or, or p  or watching oal.

1510
01:37:30,855 --> 01:37:32,775
Maybe watching Oswald was a job.

1511
01:37:32,775 --> 01:37:37,545
You had to keep an eye on this like young
communist effector who had returned.

1512
01:37:37,875 --> 01:37:38,655
Nonsense.

1513
01:37:39,525 --> 01:37:40,605
Absolutely nonsense.

1514
01:37:41,505 --> 01:37:44,625
Have you ever done any
work for the FBI or cia?

1515
01:37:47,835 --> 01:37:48,435
No, I haven't.

1516
01:37:48,615 --> 01:37:54,165
No, I was not a oswell sitter
for the CIA or whatever kind of

1517
01:37:54,165 --> 01:37:55,575
story they're trying to tell.

1518
01:37:55,815 --> 01:38:00,345
One of the things that I have felt very
strongly is that it was important for

1519
01:38:00,345 --> 01:38:05,745
me to answer questions and to say what
I knew because I'm interested in truth.

1520
01:38:05,895 --> 01:38:10,845
I have really less and less
patience with the people who are

1521
01:38:10,845 --> 01:38:12,675
still looking for a conspiracy.

1522
01:38:13,005 --> 01:38:16,815
It's great that we live in a
country that where people can put

1523
01:38:16,815 --> 01:38:19,245
out their false notions freely.

1524
01:38:19,395 --> 01:38:24,435
That doesn't happen in much of the
world, and we can be proud that people

1525
01:38:24,435 --> 01:38:29,055
can write books that are full of
falsehoods and print 'em and not get.

1526
01:38:34,630 --> 01:38:38,889
I'm a very independent person,
kind of nobody tells me what to do.

1527
01:38:40,320 --> 01:38:40,929
. Mm-hmm.